[milliec]

Geez, I hope that wasn't based on my first post - I was referring to Fred's answer not your question. If this is the case I apologize for any confusion. :(

Hi, Neither have I considered your input when I wrote my lines.
I have a very high appreciation to your inputs.
Millie:)

[Starman]

Hi, Neither have I considered your input when I wrote my lines.
I have a very high appreciation to your inputs.
Millie:)

Thanks for the explanation Millie. I'll try not to jump to conclusions from now on. One of the many things I have to work on.

[omfs1skier]

Folks:

Although I am bothered by the tone of some of the posters in response to the question "Is pushing buttons in an elevator and opening doors on Shabbat considered work for religious Jews?", I will give the person asking the question the benefit of the doubt, and assume that (s)he is sincerely trying to understand why the request is being made.

I am a religious Jew. I understand the man's request. Here is why something trivial as pushing an elevator button and opening a building door on Shabbat (and even some other Jewish holidays) forbidden in his opinion. For those "educated" posters who think "work" is forbidden on Shabbat, I have good news and bad news. They are only partially right. SOME forms of work are forbidden to religious Jews on Shabbat, and some are not.

One of the more astute responders tried to point y'all in the right direction by sending you to a web site with a description of the 39 categories of "work" that are forbidden. The entire basis of these 39 categories is one sentence in the book of Exodus:
Moses' discourse to the Community of Israel about the building of the Sanctuary opens with the following words:

"Six days labor shall be performed, and on the seventh day you will have a holy Shabbos of rest in honor of G-d: anyone who performs a labor on Shabbos shall be put to death." (Ex. 35:2).

It is a commandment to labor -- "Six days labor shall be performed". Part of that same commandment is the commandment to observe the Shabbos by willfully abstaining from labor when so commanded. So stringent is this commandment that its willful infringement is punishable by execution. The example of forbidden labor given in the Torah text is that of kindling fire on the Sabbath day, which is infringed by acts as simple as flicking on a light-switch, lighting a cooker or starting a car ignition.

The ability to observe Shabbos and the ability to engage in truly meaningful labor on the other days of the week are bound up together. Only when a person can consciously abstain from action and willfully NOT perform a particular range of actions as instructed by G-d on Shabbos can he be said to have true INTENTION when he does perform the action in honor of G-d on the six days of the week. Only then does his action have true merit.

Now, granted that in our society no human has the power to execute another just because (s)he worked on a day that rest is mandated, but for orthodox Jews, the order is absolute, since G-d can always execute judgment.

Hence your resident's request to have the elevator button pushed, an action that can create a spark (if not at the button, then somewhere along the entire electrical grid which provides the electricity to the button and to the elevator motors) is very reasonable, and as a professional doorman, you should execute it out of simple courtesy.

His request to open the lobby door for him is reasonable if your lobby door has any kind of electrical device that gets activated when the door is pushed open. Examples of such devices are alarm system sensors, power-assists for the handicapped, closed-circuit systems, electromagnetic locks...

So as you can see, his request for you to open the door is also very reasonable, without any implication of him having a desire to be catered to.

By the way, the same restrictions apply to certain Jewish holidays, but not all. So if you are a truly professional and customer-oriented doorman, you would approach him and ask him if there are any other times of the year he would like the same service performed.

If the resident asks that you (the doorman) press the elevator button and hold the door open 24/7, then maybe he can be accused of wanting to feel important, but even then, your job as a customer-service oriented doorman is to find out why and how you can accommodate it.

I must caution all of you against making arguments such as "So and so, also Jewish (or any other religion), doesn't do "X". So and so may be an agnostic Jew, a reform Jew, or a conservative Jew, or just a plain secular person with Jewish ancestry, and have no clue about what Jewish law says about the 39 classes of forbidden types of labor.

Hope this post helps you do your job better, and the rest of the posters understand Jewish theology better.

Brent

[31pumpkin]

Wow that sounded so painful. It's hard for me to believe that there aren't other choices. But I guess you're not looking for any either.

Cheers!

[ScottGem]

Wow that sounded so painful. It's hard for me to believe that there aren't other choices. But I guess you're not looking for any either.

Cheers!

Huh, what was painful? What choices do you think there are? As a Christian are you given a choice whether to be baptized or not?

The 39 categories may be inconvenient, but many rituals and requirements of other religions are just as incenvenient.

[fredg]

Hi,
Very good answer, Omf, excellent.
The 24/7 was very good, showing that it's possible this is not to be observed every single day, every single hour.
I do hope you continue posting answers.
Best wishes.

[31pumpkin]

Oh no disrespect intended. Just my reaction to the subject or object.

I mean it's just a button! Analyzing THINGS to death seems fruitless for PEOPLE.


Is it the button that launches a nuclear attack? :confused:

[ScottGem]

Oh no disrespect intended. Just my reaction to the subject or object.

I mean it's just a button! Analyzing THINGS to death seems fruitless for PEOPLE.


Is it the button that launches a nuclear attack? :confused:

You claim; "No disrespect intended", yet you continue to do so. The point is that its not "just a button". Its an interpretation of Talmudic LAW that evolved with the discovery and application of electricity. Talmudic law forbids kindling a fire. Since the use of electricity creates a spark, ergo kindling a fire, it has been prohibited on Shabbat.

I'm sure, if I looked, I could find similar laws placed on Christians and Moslems that would seem a stretch in interpetation. But that's not the point. The point is that Jews who strictly observe the Sabbath are prohibited from doing any activity that falls into those 39 categories. To denigrate those beliefs is to show disrepect for their religion.

[31pumpkin]

Or the record- Your Points are duly Noted.

[Starman]

I appreciate the all the responses that have clarified this subject. I worked as a doorman some thirty years ago for six months in an apartment building in downtown New York City. It was during that time that the events I mentioned happened. We always respectfully and courteously pushed the buttons and opened the doors with no questions asked although we didn't understand why the person felt it necessary. My post isn't meant as a criticism. It was posted simply because I wanted to know the reason for the custom. Thanks again for the informative responses and God bless!

[RickJ]

I've learned a lot here... and understand that some Jews will count certain button pushing as igniting a flame.

I'm curious. Was there a Jewish perspective clarified on the opening the door part that I've missed?

[31pumpkin]

No, it's not a matter of respect. I would be one of those people pushing the button for the guy!

I'm well equipped with understanding. I lived and worked in N.Y.C. till I was 31. And did it with eyes wide open too. So, I was, very capable of UNDERSTANDING. Especially the obvious. If someone politely asks someone to push a button, well, everybody's got their reasons for doing things. I would just hope that man got to his destination on time.

As far as respect. That may be your own issue. Because for this particular subject, I can understand a person. However, I cannot respect something that I don't AGREE with.

[NeedKarma]

I'm curious. Was there a Jewish perspective clarified on the opening the door part that I've missed?

I think it's somewhere in here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...tml#post116026

[orange]

I've learned alot here...and understand that some Jews will count certain button pushing as igniting a flame.

I'm curious. Was there a Jewish perspective clarified on the opening the door part that I've missed?

I don't think opening a door is usually considered work; my in-laws open doors on Shabbos. But I think maybe this door was an electric security one, like the kind of door where you have to buzz to get in and out of an apartment building. So if that was the case, opening the electric door would be considered making fire (aka work). But opening a regular manual door would not.

[valinors_sorrow]

With sincere respect to all faiths on earth, I asked God and he/she/it said no it is not a sin. Furthermore he said work is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love, and the play is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love and that he intends for an appropriate balance in all things. It was pretty simple, I thought.

And no, I am not some sort of cracked person talking with God, lol.

[jduke44]

This is the first time I saw this thread. I am not going to add anythig profound or necessarily answering the question but I did want to put my 2 cents worth in reagrding the statement "going too far"

I am not trying to offend anyone and maybe nobaody cares about this but I wanted to clarify something from a Christian perspective. Ok, it is my point of view but here goes. Years ago, I might have been critical in my spirit about this thinking the person is going to far in their religion. But as this forum has taught me there is legitimate reasons people do or think the way they do. I am reminded of a scripture in the bible that Paul writes in Romans 14:2

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Now, I am not calling anyone weak. My point is that we shouldn't look down on someone for doing a certain thing because we don't do that ourselves. I am not saying anyone is doing this, I thought it would be an interesting point. Sorry if this is a bit off the subject.

[ScottGem]

With sincere respect to all faiths on earth, I asked God and he/she/it said no it is not a sin. Furthermore he said work is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love, and the play is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love and that he intends for an appropriate balance in all things. It was pretty simple, I thought.

And no, I am not some sort of cracked person talking with God, lol.

Sorry, but when you put down and negate someone else's religious beliefs (which is exactly what you did here), that is not showing "sincere respect to all faiths". There is biblical support keeping the Sabbath holy as a day of rest. How different faiths interpret that is up to them.

[31pumpkin]

Sorry right back. While" your" religious beliefs have you "sitting it out", There are real heroes out there working on this SABBATH and even on Christmas.

So I'm certainly glad Jack and Jill are working Saturday when some poor victim gets hit by a car and needs to get medical attention fast!
Are you?

James 1:27- Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
:rolleyes:

[ScottGem]

Sorry right back. While" your" religious beliefs have you "sitting it out", There are real heroes out there working on this SABBATH and even on Christmas.

What they heck does that have to do with anything? I don't take off during the Xmas holidays because its not my holiday, leaving others to do so since its more important to them.

Exodus 20:8-11 states"

20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy.
20:9 For six days you may labor and do all your work,
20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates.
20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy

Christianity as well as Judiasm and Islam both follow the Ten Commandments.

[31pumpkin]

Working on the SABBATH is an old testament thing. Bound by the old law.