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N0help4u · Jul 27, 2008, 05:39 PM

How does sola scriptura contradict the Bible when it is meant to back up Church doctrine?
If it contradicts the Bible then it isn't making sense to me.

Church doctrine is suppose to be backed up by scripture not scripture made to fit church doctrine.

Tj3 · Jul 27, 2008, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

How does sola scriptura contradict the Bible when it is meant to back up Church doctrine?
If it contradicts the Bible then it isn't making sense to me.

Church doctrine is suppose to be backed up by scripture not scripture made to fit church doctrine.

Absolutely right. Scripture warns against the sin of denominationalism:

1 Cor 1:12-14
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV

And yet today there are churches and people claiming that their church is the only true church, or that there church is of Peter, or their church has authority over God's word (the Bible), contrary to 2 Pet 1:20 claim the sole right to interpret scripture when the Bible says that NO MAN can claim that right.

It seems to me that this is where most errors in doctrine originate - People and churches placing themselves above and in judgment of the word of God, rather than submitting themselves to God's word and what it says. There are those who claim that it is a heresy to submit ourselves to the word of God, but I will take my chance with God - He is my judge, not the denominationalists (Regardless of their denomination).

N0help4u · Jul 27, 2008, 06:30 PM

Yeah I will take my chance too. I can't see following a denomination when it goes against the
Bible and then saying that the Church has it right, over the Bible.

Galveston1 · Jul 27, 2008, 07:09 PM

Isa 8:20

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(KJV)

De Maria · Jul 27, 2008, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

How does sola scriptura contradict the Bible when it is meant to back up Church doctrine?

Sola Scriptura teaches that anyone can go to the Bible and interpret it correctly.

The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says that the Bible can be misunderstood by people who are not familiar with Church Teaching.

Acts 8 27 And rising up, he went. And behold a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. 28 And he was returning, sitting in this chariot, and reading Isaias the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?

31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man show me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

I'll give you an example from regular life.

The United States Government has a very important document called the Constitution. Does the United States Government let anyone pick up the Constitution and decide what laws govern the land.

No. Only the Legislature can decide the law of the land. And only the Supreme Court can decide whether these laws are correct interpretations of the Constitution.

Why does the US Government limit who can interpret the Constitution?

Because if anyone and everyone could interpret the Constitution, we would live under anarchy.

And God is even wiser than the US Government. God has set up where God's document, the Bible, must be interpreted according to the Traditions of God which were taught by Jesus Christ and only by the Church of Jesus Christ which Jesus set up to teach His Words to the whole world.

If it contradicts the Bible then it isn't making sense to me.

Lets look at the definition which TJ provided:
the belief that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.

OK. Now if that is so, then this doctrine, Sola Scriptura, should be found, or as you say, should be backed up, by Scripture and only Scripture.

In other words, Scripture alone should say that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.

Show me where Scripture says that.

Church doctrine is suppose to be backed up by scripture not scripture made to fit church doctrine.

Wrong.

Church doctrine is the Word of God.

The Word of God is contained in both traditions, those of word and those of Scripture.

Therefore, Scripture backs up Tradition.
And Tradition backs up Scripture.

If anyone interprets Scripture in a way which is not reflected in Tradition, then that interpretation is wrong.

If anyone claims a tradition which is not in accordance with Scripture, then that tradition is wrong.

Therefore, the tradition of men, known as Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine, because it is neither found in Scripture NOR in Tradition.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3 · Jul 27, 2008, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

Sola Scriptura teaches that anyone can go to the Bible and interpret it correctly.

See - you do not understand sola scriptura. You told me previously that you did. Sola scriptura requires that scripture interpret scripture in accordance with the Biblical command.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Lets look at the definition which TJ provided:
the belief that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.

OK. Now if that is so, then this doctrine, Sola Scriptura, should be found, or as you say, should be backed up, by Scripture and only Scripture.

It is but since you claim that there are addition sources to the canon (7 more books, tradition, etc.) the onus is on you to prove that these sources are the word of God.

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

Since we already agree that the 66 books of the books originally accepted by the church are canonical, additions to that must be proven to have equal authority. You keep wanting to divert from that requirement.

Church doctrine is the Word of God.

Why don't you start with this claim?

Therefore, Scripture backs up Tradition.
And Tradition backs up Scripture.

Previously I provided you with several traditions that contradict scripture.

If anyone interprets Scripture in a way which is not reflected in Tradition, then that interpretation is wrong.

No, this claim contradicts scripture. Scripture says that no man is to interpret scripture.

N0help4u · Jul 27, 2008, 08:01 PM

***Sola Scriptura teaches that anyone can go to the Bible and interpret it correctly.
So if it is interpreted correctly what is the problem?

*no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, that is sola scriptura so what you are referring to is NOT sola scriptura.

***The Bible says that the Bible can be misunderstood by people who are not familiar with Church Teaching.
*That is why you take doctrine and back it up with scripture.
So then the ones that are interpreting the Bible wrongly are not sola scriptura
They are not taking a doctrine and backing it with the word they are coming to their own conclusions and making up their own doctrine.
I don't think that very many sola scriptura believers do that.
The majority are looking to the Bible to back what the church says and if it doesn't back it then they go by the Bible not the doctrine.
Whereas the sola scriptura believers that misuse it read the Bible and make up whatever they want by taking things out of context.

***In other words, Scripture alone should say that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.
*All the Bible verses that teach Jesus' warning, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in..

***Wrong.

Church doctrine is the Word of God.

*Wrong if it is not backed by the word of God

***Therefore, Scripture backs up Tradition.
And Tradition backs up Scripture.

*Wrong
You do not seem to understand that many traditions are man made and not backed up by the Bible. The Bible refers to two types of traditions and you seem to see all tradition as Gods tradition.

De Maria · Jul 27, 2008, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

So if it is interpreted correctly what is the problem?

None. The problem lies when it is misinterpreted. And as I showed before but you left that out, Scripture says that many will twist its message:

2 Peter 3 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

*no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, that is sola scriptura so what you are referring to is NOT sola scriptura.

You are confusing the false doctrine and Scripture itself.

The words you have highlighted are from Scripture, true. But Scripture alone is a false doctrine which says that Scripture is the sole standard of doctrine.

Have you found that for me in Scripture yet?

*That is why you take doctrine and back it up with scripture.

True. But there are some false doctrines which are so confusing which must be taken back to Tradition to see if anyone ever interpreted Scripture in that way. This happened when Arius and Athanasius debated over the Divinity of Christ many centuries ago.

The way the issue was resolved was to take the argument to the Church. Both claimed Scripture and both claimed the Holy Spirit. But Athanasius could also prove Tradition. Therefore, Arius was declared a heretic.

So then the ones that are interpreting the Bible wrongly are not sola scriptura
They are not taking a doctrine and backing it with the word they are coming to their own conclusions and making up their own doctrine.
I don't think that very many sola scriptura believers do that.

They all do.

The majority are looking to the Bible to back what the church says and if it doesn't back it then they go by the Bible not the doctrine.

In other words, they lean on their own understanding. I guarantee that if you and another Sola Scripturist disagree, you each will decide for yourselves what to believe. Never mind what the Church teaches.

But the Scriptures say that if you and a brother disagree, take him to the Church and if he listens not to the Church, let him be treated as a heathen (Matt 18:17).

Whereas the sola scriptura believers that misuse it read the Bible and make up whatever they want by taking things out of context.

Correct.

***In other words, Scripture alone should say that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.
*All the Bible verses that teach Jesus' warning, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in..

***Wrong.

Church doctrine is the Word of God.

*Wrong if it is not backed by the word of God

***Therefore, Scripture backs up Tradition.
And Tradition backs up Scripture.

*Wrong
You do not seem to understand that many traditions are man made and not backed up by the Bible. The Bible refers to two types of traditions and you seem to see all tradition as Gods tradition.

Then you disagree with Scripture, not with me. Because Scripture says, hold the traditions. (2 Thess 2:14)

Which traditions do you hold?

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u · Jul 27, 2008, 09:32 PM

Yes I know many will misinterpret then that makes it really NOT sola scriptura BUT THEIR misinterpretation therefore it is not sola scriptura but their own human reasoning.
Just like in the law not knowing the law does not make you innocent of the law.

revdrgade · Jul 27, 2008, 09:46 PM

The phrase "Sola Scriptura" is used by some ONLY to say that ONLY Scripture reveals the teachings of God. That is, there is no other source of sound doctrine except the Bible.

Even if people receive prophecies, they still must in total agreement with the written Word of God.

De Maria · Jul 28, 2008, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes I know many will misinterpret then that makes it really NOT sola scriptura BUT THEIR misinterpretation therefore it is not sola scriptura but their own human reasoning.
Just like in the law not knowing the law does not make you innocent of the law.

Again, Scripture says "hold the traditions". Which tradition do you hold?

N0help4u · Jul 28, 2008, 06:32 AM

Traditions that I hold?
Keep the sabbath for one, baptism by submersion, the power of the Holy Spirit,

God and His Word. Without that tradition is a powerless form without godliness where we have laid aside, rejected, and made God's Word of none effect in favor of our own traditions and values.

"This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Mark 7:6). When we observe a tradition (or practice a doctrine or live an application) solely for outward show and not from the heart, we mock God. We can allow tradition to become a mere form, a duty we perform with no thought of God. Even our singing can degenerate to that level, becoming the vain worship so despised by God.

"Laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men" (Mark 7:8). A tradition can so absorb us that we disregard what the Bible teaches. This can happen quite unintentionally. God forbid we should ever allow any tradition to displace a zeal for knowing and obeying God's will as shown in His Word.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition" (Mark 7:13). Some people, in their commitment to tradition, purposefully set aside what God Himself has to say about a given matter. For them what the Bible says does not matter anymore; they deem tradition to supersede what the Bible declares. Other people, with similar zeal for tradition, allow themselves to become that hard soil in which God's Word cannot sprout and develop into a fruitful plant. For them tradition has become the means and purpose of spirituality; they can no longer respond to the Scriptures.

The basic problem isn't with tradition but with our own flesh. When we allow God to create a new heart within us and daily renew our spirits, we will use (and respond to) tradition in a way that brings glory to the All Glorious One. So treasure the godly traditions you have.. . But keep a watch over your heart!

revdrgade · Jul 28, 2008, 04:31 PM

I'm very new on this site... as in yesterday, and I'm not sure who I am answering. I got a notice that De Maria had posted on what I said and have now read the whole discourse between the two of you.

I do believe in "Scripture Alone"/"Sola Scriptura" as the source and norm of all doctrine that agrees COMPLETELY with God.

The phrase "Scripture Alone" is a "theological construct". That is, Bible students and theologians created the phrase to use with those of a like mind who would know what they meant. Such constructs were formed as shortcuts covering accepted definitions of a topic. That does make it esoteric and certainly open to misinterpretation outside of the group of those who agreed on what it means.

Having read both of your give and takes, I believe we agree enough with each other that:

The Bible alone is what God wants us to believe fully.

Some traditions of the church(those called out by God... not the corporate entities) are good and some have flaws.

Theologians need to be careful to explain what they mean.

By the way: The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod has the motto: "Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide". I don't even want to get into what that means to those outside of that denomination.

N0help4u · Jul 28, 2008, 04:42 PM

I agree. It is when people decide they are going to interpret the bible on their own to fit what they want as the outcome to justify what they want to believe and therefore take things out of contrast that is when it becomes a problem. But that is not what sola scriptura means as De Marie seems to think it does.

Tj3 · Jul 28, 2008, 04:49 PM

Revdrgade,

That was an excellent summary. And I am familiar with Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide!

De Maria · Jul 28, 2008, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by revdrgade

The phrase "Sola Scriptura" is used by some ONLY to say that ONLY Scripture reveals the teachings of God. That is, there is no other source of sound doctrine except the Bible.

Even if people receive prophecies, they still must in total agreement with the written Word of God.

Then is Scripture in error when it says:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria · Jul 28, 2008, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Traditions that I hold?
Keep the sabbath for one, baptism by submersion, the power of the Holy Spirit,

God and His Word. Without that tradition is a powerless form without godliness where we have laid aside, rejected, and made God's Word of none effect in favor of our own traditions and values.

"This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Mark 7:6). When we observe a tradition (or practice a doctrine or live an application) solely for outward show and not from the heart, we mock God. We can allow tradition to become a mere form, a duty we perform with no thought of God. Even our singing can degenerate to that level, becoming the vain worship so despised by God.

"Laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men" (Mark 7:8). A tradition can so absorb us that we disregard what the Bible teaches. This can happen quite unintentionally. God forbid we should ever allow any tradition to displace a zeal for knowing and obeying God's will as shown in His Word.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition" (Mark 7:13). Some people, in their commitment to tradition, purposefully set aside what God Himself has to say about a given matter. For them what the Bible says does not matter anymore; they deem tradition to supersede what the Bible declares. Other people, with similar zeal for tradition, allow themselves to become that hard soil in which God's Word cannot sprout and develop into a fruitful plant. For them tradition has become the means and purpose of spirituality; they can no longer respond to the Scriptures.

The basic problem isn't with tradition but with our own flesh. When we allow God to create a new heart within us and daily renew our spirits, we will use (and respond to) tradition in a way that brings glory to the All Glorious One. So treasure the godly traditions you have . . . but keep a watch over your heart!

Good. I'm glad you recognize that Jesus did not condemn all traditions. But only those which contradict the Word of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u · Jul 28, 2008, 05:00 PM

Why would it be in error it says spoken the word of God and we are saying follow the word of God so where is the contradiction? Where is the error?

N0help4u · Jul 28, 2008, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

Good. I'm glad you recognize that Jesus did not condemn all traditions. But only those which contradict the Word of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Dah that is what I have been saying. There are God's traditions and man's traditions

De Maria · Jul 28, 2008, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

why would it be in error it says spoken the word of God and we are saying follow the word of God so where is the contradiction? Where is the error?

That is not quite what was said:
The phrase "Sola Scriptura" is used by some ONLY to say that ONLY Scripture reveals the teachings of God. That is, there is no other source of sound doctrine except the Bible.

Even if people receive prophecies, they still must in total agreement with the written Word of God.

He says,. ONLY Scripture reveals the teachings of God....

But Scripture itself says that our Prelates (leaders) reveal the Word of God also.

Who is right in your opinion?

Sincerely,

De Maria