[Galveston1]

RE home school: 2 prob. Kids learn more than ABCs at school. There's also the socialization. Also, have to be careful on home sch programs. Many are lacking in proper science education.

Pooling the home school children takes care of the socialization. Anyway, what the kids learn in public school socially is WAY overrated.
Academically, home school students consistently score better than their public school contemporaries in all subjects.

[progunr]

Abolish the Department of Education.

Since the first day this was founded, our level and quality of education has gone consistently downhill.

[George_1950]

I believe vouchers would bring positive results for 'American education', which is too beholden to government and union control. Have you read about education vouchers in Sweden and Finland? "The equally socialist Sweden is also letting the free market work in their schools. They've adopted vouchers. Sweden's voucher system allows parents to opt out of the public schools and send their kids to private school regardless of family income." clarkhoward.com: Clarchives clarkhoward - Clark Howard's Show Notes school choice & other experiments

[WVHiflyer]

Those supposed higher test scores among the home schooled have not been proven.

And for those who want the gov't out of education, you also seem to want vouchers. So just who is going to be providing the money for those? The gov't. Do you really think that the gov will pay for something and not want a hand in administration?

No provate school system will allow the education of all, no matter how good or wide spread a voucher system is supposed to be. Those private schools would have no requirement to accept all students.

And no matter what you think of the education system, an educated public is absolutely vital. That includes all.

[Galveston1]

WV, you have a lot more confidence in the public education system than I do. My father, born in 1898, finished 6 years of formal schooling. He was better educated than 2yr college grads today, and proved it back in about 1948 when some students at UT Austin brought him some tests. They were curious as to just how much he really knew. They were impressed!
My youngest son got most of his education in Christian schools and finished his hs at home, and when he took the required final exams, scored in the top 5% nationally.

[Galveston1]

Additional thoughts about school teaching socialization: Which of the social graces does public education teach? How to extort lunch money from weaker students? How belonging to a gang makes you better? Being pressured to conform to your peers by having sex? Learning what it is like to get high on drugs (taught by the resident pusher)? I'm sure there are other social graces that I haven't thought of right now, but are these what you refer to?

[bobp1]

1. Get a clear consensus of why we are educating our children. Look this up on the net and you will find virtually no answer. If you look at college guidelines for acceptance you find they are looking for either well rounded candidates or passionate candidates. These sound like laudable goals. But it means that HS graduates don't need to know anything of values just a little bit about a lot of different stuff. Or a blind drive for something. What does this mean to the man in the street. No much.
Look at where our school's curriculum comes from.
A. apprentship programs (slavery, indentured servants, guild programs, etc)
B. Professional schools (Seminaries)
C. Elementery schools (Reading (the bible), writing, Arithmatic) taught to the tune
D. Hard knocks (ouch)
E. University (Liberal arts, what did the rich plantation owners do during the long winter months to entertain themselves)

University won out, and now education in the public school system id designed as edutainment. School ala Alex Trebec. Fun if you have the time to waste, but not very valuable. If you don't believe me ask any student who has learned to read.

It has been said that poor children do poorer in schools than their more affluent bretherern. This is not because money makes you smarter, (all evidence seems to indicate the opposite), it is because what is being taught has less value for someone who needs a ladder out of poverty than someone who only need for a HS degree is an introduction to someone who is looking for a well rounded person.

Being well rounded does not put food on the table, cars in the garage, or vacations in summer. The poor are smart, they are being offered Marie Antoinette's Cake. There is no bread.

2. Change the curriculum to something that is of real value.

3. Make it clear that we are educating the youth of the nation so that they can, without the aid of government, comfortably provide for their own needs and the needs of their families (wives, childere, parents, etc.)
A. teach how the various markets (Stock, commedities, products, money, etc) work. How they can be used to make money, how to invest, how to prepare for retirement, how to manage money, the basics of finance, economics micro and macro. Monitary theory, Economic theories (Capitolism, Communisim, facism (yes it is an economic theory), socialism, Fuedleism, whatever) showing the strenghts and weakness of each. -- It is important to learn bad and dangerous systems properly so their allure doesn't drag us into their malestorm --
B. Use the lessons of economics to build critical thinking, enhance basic mathmetical skills, deal with complex and often misleading reading material, Write plans and proposals to test economic positions and operate in current and historical market postiions.
C. Build off an economic background to see the many enjoyable aspects of ecucation (music, arts, literature, drama, etc).
D. From the developed realization that real wealth is not money or credit but ideas, and tangible property gbuild an understanding that to increase wealth both personal and national real skills, research, and hard work are necessary. Offer material demonstrating a smorgesboard of possibilities, and branch off into semi-individual cirriculums to develop personnal interests, talents, and abilities.
E. Develop more efficient methods of teaching. A 1 - 15 ratio is nice, but if equal results using a 1 to 100 to 1 to 1000 ratio can be achieved, than more time can be spent on imporving methods of teaching, better results cabn be achieved, and over all costs can be reduced.

Schools are not government baby sitting services
Schools are not a place to make you feel good
Schools are not built for the teachers administratore, or staff
Schools are not entertainment palaces
Schools are not an instrument of social engineering

Schools are necessary to create a self sufficient population
Schools must provide meaningful instruction
The primary function of an education system is to provide the students with the instruction, materials, and knowledge to master subject material, and the methods of using the subject material in a meaninful manner

On teacher pay
a great teacher cannot be overpaid
a bad teacher cannot be underpaid

Question
is it of any value to have good teacher with a bad curriculum

[Galveston1]

Well said, bob. But if we do that then the people will be smart enough to vote the rascals out, so it isn't in the best interests of the powers that be to do this.
Analisis: get school back into the hands of the local governments, some way, some how.

[Wondergirl]

I agree that the local government should oversee its schools. Also, students should be told that a college degree isn't necessary for success, that the trades pay well--and work the beginning of vocational education into a high school curriculum. There's nothing wrong with being a plumber or a carpenter or a can. And we need to prep kids much better with all the basics, so they know their times tables and can do arithmetic, know grammar, be able to write legibly, plus all the other stuff necessary for a solid grounding no matter where life takes them.

[bobp1]

Local governments aren't any better than national one, as long as government is allowed to spend our money without limit it will do whatever it can to get even more money. If we truly wan great public education we need to get education out of the hands of bureaucrats.

Our education system is like those broken down shacks you see on back roads and byways. It is dilapidated, neglected and falling apart. If we really wish to see it improved we need to stop arguing about what color to paint it and start drawing a new blueprint for a system that will meet the needs of today, tomorrow, and beyond. Education is not rainbows, and roses, it is a foundation, which if properly laid out and built, will allow us to build mansions for all where flowers grow, and rivers run clean. If on the other hand we continue to muddle down the path of pipe dreams, and foolishness we seem to think is great art we will find ourselves in a cesspool of decaying garbage, and eternal trash

[Wondergirl]

Local governments aren't any better than national one

No, but local governments understand better than state or national ones the milieu in which a student lives and the challenges he's up against.

It is dilapidated, neglected and falling apart. If we really wish to see it improved we need to stop arguing about what color to paint it

Who is "we"? And who is going to create a new system? Should we "throw out the baby with the bathwater" and "reinvent the wheel"?

[bobp1]

Wondergirl >> No, but local governments understand better than state or national ones the milieu in which a student lives and the challenges he's up against.

I wish this were true. Cleveland had local control and 70% of students who entered high school didn't graduate even with social promotion. High school students couldn't read write or do basic math. A change of venue, control, or responsibility is not the answer.

You asked if we throw out the baby with the bath water. Right now the baby is drowning so we must get of the bath water to save the baby. Seriously it probably is not necessary to toss out everything we do in education, but the whole process does need to be thoroughly examined. The basic edutainment paradyme must be replaced with a the concept that education must have actual real world values. We have an epidemic of under educated, unprepared people being dumped on society by big education which claims we are barbarians for not seeing the brilliance of their program to turn out "well rounded" people.

Your final question "who is we". "We" is everyone who is fed up with the status quo of no value education, with an America that is losing its place as a leader of world progress, with the fear of seeing our children and grandchildren dependent on government for their every need. "We" is everyone who believes that greatness is inherent in all of us.

[George_1950]

The "customer" in most American schools is the teaching profession, not the student, and certainly not the parents. Their should be no collective bargaining in school districts, and parents should be given a voucher for each child. The principals hire, fire, and direct the curriculum. There would be dramatic turn around in two years, and dramatic results in five, in my opinion.