[Thomaslover_C]

NO You can not loose your salvation, because once you give your heart to Jesus Christ, He will hold on to it forever. You may give up in It, but He will always have your hand, and will never let go. Once you give your heart, there is no taking It back. GOD bless!

[arcura]

Thomaslover_C
Sorry but that is not biblical.
As has been pointed out here a person can lose his/her salvation.
Please read these post again.
Several ways persons can loses their salvation has been provided here.
Please and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[N0help4u]

Once you give your heart, there is no taking It back.

I can agree with Thomaslover because she said once you have him IN your heart,
not lip service of professing Christians that CAN 'lose their salvation'.

They word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

[sndbay]

The scripture in Deuteronomy speak of lightly esteemed which means to be foolish, or to
Wither and fade the Rock of your own salvation.

Deu. 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered [with fatness]; then he forsook God [which] made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Note: Psalms 3:8 Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.

The coming and going of salvation lies in the hands of the Lord. Christ brought salvation, and Christ gave salvation to those who believe in Him. But I would not question whether God would become as jealous as He says in Deuteronomy scripture to anyone that forsook Him.

[Tj3]

Thomaslover_C
Sorry but that is not biblical.
As has been pointed out here a person can lose his/her salvation.
Please read these post again.
Several ways persons can loses their salvation has been provided here.
Please and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

Scripture is specific that one cannot lose their salvation. (John 10:28-29)

It is indeed possible for a person to walk away from their salvation (and scripture gives several examples of that), but they cannot lose it.

[sndbay]

There is no such thing in the bible as "Onced Saved, Always Saved". In fact, even saved, ther is possibility to go back to perdition as stated in Hebrews 10:38-39

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

One perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot who sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

Salvation is given to us by Christ.. If and when any decision on anyone's salvation is in question, it would be Christ only that judges.. Always causion yourself in judgement of others, no matter what your mortal mind thinks.
The same goes to Fred in judgement of forgiveness.. We are told to forgive or not be forgiven, but don't make the mistake in thinking you can judge the salvation of someone else or yourself because you question their forgiving nature, unforgiving nature, or their heart... Salvation belongth to the Lord Psalms 3:8

[arcura]

Tj3,
Scripture IS specific when Jesus says that if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven.
God forgives us as we forgive others.
If you are not forgiven than you will lose any salvation you might have had.
Just a day or so back you said that you do not believe in Know-so-salvation and now you come back and claim that Scripture indicates that.
So once again you make me not trust what you say.
I'm still praying for you.
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Scripture IS specific when Jesus says that if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven.
God forgives us as we forgive others.
If you are not forgiven than you will lose any salvation you might have had.
Just a day or so back you said that you do not believe in Know-so-salvation and now you come back and claim that Scripture indicates that.

Fred, it is dishonest to mis-represent what I said. I said nothing of the sort.

I said that I do not believe in once-saved-always-saved. You keep using that term "know so salvation" and have refused to define it every time asked, so I have never said that I do or do not believe it whatever it is, because I will not respond if you refuse to define your terms.

Once again, Fred, will you define your terms? Or are you playing games?

So once again you make me not trust what you say.

Fred, I could not care less what you think of me. You go from board to board playing these same games.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Once saved always saved and Know-so-salvation are the same thing as used by several different denominations, primarily various Baptist denominations.
To me they are the same non-biblical teaching because a person can lose his/her salvation via several ways.
And, only God knows for sure who will God to heaven.
Neither you or I or anyone else here knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Once saved always saved and Know-so-salvation are the same thing as used by several different denominations, primarily various Baptist denominations.

Fred,

I did not realize that was your derogatory term for OSAS. But nonetheless, I do not believe in OSAS - why do you choose to mis-represent me? Don't you have enough to do trying to defend your denomination's doctrines?

Second, your lack of knowledge of Baptist denominations is horrendous. If you take 5 minutes some day to check out even the basics, you will find that Baptist denominations go from Arminian through to Calvinist, and most variations in between. It should not take you any longer than that to find out how wrong your mis-understanding is.

To me they are the same non-biblical teaching because a person can lose his/her salvation via several ways.

Do you know the difference between "losing" your salvation, and willfully choosing to walk away from it?

Do you know that people who believe in OSAS believe that you can do neither?

Can you show me a single verse that says that you can "lose" your salvation?

If you believe that a person can lose their salvation, how do you explain this?

John 10:27-30
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
NKJV

Now, people can walk away from salvation - scripture says so:

1 Tim 4:1-4
4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
NKJV

(BTW, do you find the examples of false doctrines to be interesting)

[arcura]

Tj3,
I did not intentionally misrepresent you as I explained.
If that upsets you I am sorry that it does.
I will henceforth try to keep in mind that you think that OSAS and Know-so-salvation are not the same thing as a great many other people do believe they are the same.
I have had several people of different denominations tell me that they believe that they are the same.
One verse, my goodness there are several, but the one I have used the most here that shows that a person can loses the salvation they may once have had is from the lips of Jesus.
From the NJB Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.
I know several people who were at one time very forgiven but something bad happened to them caused by another person and they refuse to forgive that person's crime against them.
On the other hand I know a mother here in Montana who's daughter was raped and murdered by a man who she now has publicly forgiven him.
I forgive everyone who has sinned against me by thought word or deed whether I know about the sins or not.
That is the way I ask God to forgive me and according to Jesus, God the Son, I will be forgiven in that manner.
He taught us to pray that way, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I pray that way every day for you and everyone who has sinned against me and ask that your sins (whatever they may be) will be forgiven by God.
Why? The answer is that I would like to meet you in paradise.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[tsila1777]

Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.

Then you believe we must 'get saved' over and over all day long? Do I understand you right?

Suppose I am hit by another car and have great rage against him, then go over a cliff before I have time to forgive him. Will I have lost my salvation?

The four gospels were before Christ died and was raised again. Salvation was not available to us before this happened. Jesus could forgive sins, but the grace of God has not been poured out, esp. on the Gentiles: We were 'without hope'

Romans 5

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV)

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It is by faith that we are saved, and that by grace: Romanss 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I believe that the Blood has not lost Its power! And He forgives our iniquities, sins we do not even know we do.

However Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
I do not believe a sinner can commit this sin, I believe one must know that he is doing this, and deliberately does this, not by accident, but on purpose. I cannot imagine why anyone would, but if it were not possible, it would not be written in God's Word.
I do not believe a person can 'misplace' their salvation, or commit any sin that is not already covered by the Blood of Jesus; except for blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. I do believe this sin will take away our salvation.
I do believe we are to forgive others, but I do not believe our salvation rests on that. Salvation is so much more than just forgiveness of sins. Jesus could forgive sin while on earth, but now He is sitting on the right hand of the majesty on high. He is our constant Intercessor, He sent the Spirit of God to live in us and operate through us. Salvation includes ever thing we could ever need, forgiveness is only a part of that.
Sin is sin, holding a grudge against someone is not worse than murder, hatred is considered the same as murder, and lusting is the same as adultery. The sin problem was done away with in Christ. He took our sins and carried our griefs, and by His stripes, we are healed. No, I don't think that means we have a ticket to sin, but sin has no power over me.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now, 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

He told us all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: that we should love God with all our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does include, but is not exclusive to, forgiving them.

I believe one must study the whole Bible and study each verse in context, and not pick and chose verses they like or only the ones they understand.

I have had the experience many times over the years, of reading a verse I'd read a hundred times, knew it by heart, and suddenly get a whole new revelation of what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher; He will lead and guide us into all truth. He will show us the will of God for our lives.

Does it really matter if a person can lose his salvation or not? We are saved by faith, through grace and that is the gift of God, as long as we hold onto our faith, we are not in any danger one way or the other. Unless, we decide to blaspheme.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I did not intentionally misrepresent you as I explained.

But you did Fred - I had told you many times before what I believe in this regard.

I will henceforth try to keep in mind that you think that OSAS and Know-so-salvation are not the same thing as a great many other people do believe they are the same.

There is no such thing as "know-so" salvation. That is your personal derogatory term for people you don't agree with. Therefore define it as you wish.

From the NJB Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.
I know several people who were at one time very forgiven but something bad happened to them caused by another person and they refuse to forgive that person's crime against them.
On the other hand I know a mother here in Montana who's daughter was raped and murdered by a man who she now has publicly forgiven him.
I forgive everyone who has sinned against me by thought word or deed whether I know about the sins or not.

This does not speak to the matter of whether you can lose your salvation.

[De Maria]

Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.

Then you believe we must ‘get saved’ over and over all day long? Do I understand you right?

No. We believe we must:
Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

We don't believe in judging ourselves:
1 Corinthians 4 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self.

1 Corinthians 10 12 Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Therefore we do not exalt ourselves.

Suppose I am hit by another car and have great rage against him, then go over a cliff before I have time to forgive him. Will I have lost my salvation?

What does Scripture say:

Luke 6 37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

This is what the Church teaches.

The four gospels were before Christ died and was raised again. Salvation was not available to us before this happened. Jesus could forgive sins, but the grace of God has not been poured out, esp. on the Gentiles: We were ‘without hope’

Romans 5

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV)

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It is by faith that we are saved, and that by grace: Romanss 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I believe that the Blood has not lost Its power! And He forgives our iniquities, sins we do not even know we do.

However Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
I do not believe a sinner can commit this sin, I believe one must know that he is doing this, and deliberately does this, not by accident, but on purpose. I cannot imagine why anyone would, but if it were not possible, it would not be written in God’s Word.
I do not believe a person can ‘misplace’ their salvation, or commit any sin that is not already covered by the Blood of Jesus; except for blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. I do believe this sin will take away our salvation.
I do believe we are to forgive others, but I do not believe our salvation rests on that. Salvation is so much more than just forgiveness of sins. Jesus could forgive sin while on earth, but now He is sitting on the right hand of the majesty on high. He is our constant Intercessor, He sent the Spirit of God to live in us and operate through us. Salvation includes ever thing we could ever need, forgiveness is only a part of that.
Sin is sin, holding a grudge against someone is not worse than murder, hatred is considered the same as murder, and lusting is the same as adultery. The sin problem was done away with in Christ. He took our sins and carried our griefs, and by His stripes, we are healed. No, I don’t think that means we have a ticket to sin, but sin has no power over me.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now, 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So, we are not condemned if we do not sin. That is what this verse says.

therefore now no condemnation [U]to them which are in Christ

No condemnation.

who walk not after the flesh

For those who don't sin.

He told us all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: that we should love God with all our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does include, but is not exclusive to, forgiving them.

That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

I believe one must study the whole Bible and study each verse in context, and not pick and chose verses they like or only the ones they understand.

I have had the experience many times over the years, of reading a verse I’d read a hundred times, knew it by heart, and suddenly get a whole new revelation of what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher; He will lead and guide us into all truth. He will show us the will of God for our lives.

Does it really matter if a person can lose his salvation or not? We are saved by faith, through grace and that is the gift of God, as long as we hold onto our faith, we are not in any danger one way or the other. Unless, we decide to blaspheme.

[/QUOTE]

That is a misunderstanding of Scripture:
James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

Faith without works, is dead:
James 2 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Well, I didn't have time to examine your entire statement in detail. I have to leave. But God willing I'll be back in 8 days.

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ScottRC]

Suppose I am hit by another car and have great rage against him, then go over a cliff before I have time to forgive him. Will I have lost my salvation?

"A great rage" in this scenario is certainly not enough to give away your salvation... but if over the years you slowly sin against God and finally decide one day that Christianity is bunk and THEN go over the cliff before you have a chance to repent, then yes -- you have lost/given away your salvation.

I just don't buy the old argument that a "TRUE" Christian will never fall into serious sin... if that happens, all I hear is "Well, then he wasn't TRULY saved..." and I think that's a gigantic dodge.

We are all sinners... we all continue to sin... so I certainly agree that we can't "lose" our salvation as if we don't do enough to earn it, but I can't accept that through our own failings and weakness we can not give away our salvation by rejecting the grace of God.

[tsila1777]

Scott wrote: I just don't buy the old argument that a "TRUE" Christian will never fall into serious sin... if that happens, all I hear is "Well, then he wasn't TRULY saved..." and I think that's a gigantic dodge

I agree. I was born-again, which is the term I prefer to use, at age 23 I will soon be 53, but there was a period during that time, after being hurt badly by church people, the pastor…long story…that I did not go to church for a while. For a time I continued to study the Word and worship God, but drifted away and fell into sin. When I 'hit bottom', I called on God, and He answered me, and forgave me and received me back just as if I'd never sinned. He had always been there for me; He had never left me, as He promised.

I believe by experience that a true Christian, to use the term, in my opinion you are either Christian or not…there are no 'good' Christians, which would infer there are also 'bad' Christian. A Christian can fall into sin, live in sin for a time, and then come back to God just by calling on Him and receiving the forgiveness He provided in Jesus some 2000 years ago. He paid the price for all our sins, past, present and future even before we were even born. It is not of ourselves, we did nothing to gain salvation, and we can do nothing to 'keep' it. Salvation is of the Lord. We just accept it by faith, and then stand by faith.

He is the door to God; we do not have to go through priests anymore. We have access to God Himself, and can go to Him in faith and without fear, and no bells tied to our feet, and actually have a real relationship with Him. Thank God for His Precious Gift.

[ScottRC]

A Christian can fall into sin, live in sin for a time, and then come back to God just by calling on Him and receiving the forgiveness He provided in Jesus some 2000 years ago.

You are missing my point... what happens if you had died BEFORE you came back to the Lord?

What was the point of your repentance and change of heart if you never needed it?

[tsila1777]

Quote:
He told us all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: that we should love God with all our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does include, but is not exclusive to, forgiving them.

You said:That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

That is also what my church teaches, and I'm not Catholic, it is the Word of God.


[/quote] Quote:
I believe one must study the whole Bible and study each verse in context, and not pick and chose verses they like or only the ones they understand.

I have had the experience many times over the years, of reading a verse I'd read a hundred times, knew it by heart, and suddenly get a whole new revelation of what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher; He will lead and guide us into all truth. He will show us the will of God for our lives.

Does it really matter if a person can lose his salvation or not? We are saved by faith, through grace and that is the gift of God, as long as we hold onto our faith, we are not in any danger one way or the other. Unless, we decide to blaspheme.


That is a misunderstanding of Scripture:
James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

Faith without works, is dead:
James 2 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Well, I didn't have time to examine your entire statement in detail. I have to leave. But God willing I'll be back in 8 days.

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria, I certainly don't want to seem argumentative here, as I agree with what you said, yes, faith without works is dead. But the works He means is to love God and do those things that are pleasing to Him, and to love our neighbor as ourselves…to conduct ourselves in a way to bring glory to God.

Abraham lived in a time when works meant building alters and killing animals and burning them, those things could not take away their sins, it only covered their sins until Jesus came and defeated sin once and for all. He was the last sacrifice needed for sin. John called Him, “The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world.”

So, the works of the OT are different from the works of the NT. We have entered into His rest; they could not enter into His rest. “He swore in His wrath, they shall not enter into His rest' because of their unbelief. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is what pleases God, trusting in Him for all your needs, and calling on Him in times of trouble, giving Him praise and worship at all times and to pray without ceasing. Faith is a noun, but believe is a verb, it means to have a faith; be a believer.

Faith that His sacrifice was sufficient and there is nothing more we must do to 'get saved' or 'stay saved.' As long as we continue to believe and do those things that are pleasing in His sight, to hold fast to our confession of faith.

We are new creatures, a brand new kind of creations, because our spirits are born of God. The body without the spirit is dead. Old things have passed away, behold, all things are new. We have new spirits, born of God; we are the children of God. Jesus was the first born of many brethren. Jesus is my big brother. He said when ye pray, say “Our Father, which art in Heaven…”

We have received His Spirit whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, He said He would not leave us as orphans; He would come to us. I believe God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, and these three are One. I do not understand it, but because I have faith in God and He said so, that settles it and I believe it.

Blessings to you,

[tsila1777]

You are missing my point.... what happens if you had died BEFORE you came back to the Lord?

What was the point of your repentance and change of heart if you never needed it?

Did I say I repented? I thought I said I called on God, and He answered me, and forgave me and received me back just as if I’d never sinned. (justified…just as if I’d ) never sinned. I did need it, but not to go to heaven, I needed it to restore our relationship.

I called on God and received His forgiveness, which He provided 2000 years ago. He forgave me before I ever was born, before I had a change to sin the first time, the forgiveness was there all the time. I did not say I was 'saved' again; I was still 'saved'.

The only sin that will keep a person from going to Heaven, is to NOT believe on Jesus. I still believed. I still had faith. I still prayed. But I did things that were sinful. Someone on here said we all sin everyday... or something like that.

What if you slam your finger in the car door and curse and before you get over it, you died of a heart attack. Would you go to Heaven?

How long do you have to be in sin before you lose your salvation? One minute, one year? Sin is sin, it's all the same to God. Nothing shall separate me from the Love of God, which is in Christ Jesus, nothing except me turning my back on Him. I never turned my back on Him; I drifted away and fell into sin.

I tried to die; God would not let me. He never left me, He protected me even when I tried to die, He caused me to get sick and expel the pills. God was Faithful, even when I was not. But it was His goodness that drew me gently back into the fold. I was the one sheep He went after. And He healed me and brought me back.

I know the verse says a lost sheep, lost can mean many things. One can lose their way, but God always knows where they are and they are not separated from His Love, because 'nothing can separate me from His Love'.

[ScottRC]

Did I say I repented? I thought I said I called on God, and He answered me, and forgave me and received me back just as if I’d never sinned. (justified…just as if I’d ) never sinned. I did need it, but not to go to heaven, I needed it to restore our relationship.

But after you called on God the first time, you didn't need to repent or retore your relationship because your sins were already forgiven, right?

So once a person is "born again" they can do whatever they please... lie, steal, murder... and just as long as they don't reject Christ go to heaven, that what you are saying?