[Tj3]

Tj3,
Correction.....
In my view and that of others you attempted to refute them but failed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ha ha , Fred, you can believe it as wish. The facts will not change, though.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

[sndbay]

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

Fred,

Salvation is a calling from God.. God will not take the calling away..

However if we don't answer the calling.. Then we don't have what God sent in HIS calling..

1. To answer the calling we hold stedfast in One God, Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. = One Lord

2. To answer the calling we confess Christ Jesus as the begotten Son of God = ONE FAITH

3. To answer the calling we are bapized in Christ = One Baptism

The answered call, by the (law of faith) in three in "ONE"


The question is: Do you and others believe that to lose salvation, is the calling not answered?


( One Baptism being a calling that requires an the answer, appears to be the disagreement between Tj3 and myself. )

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

Fred,

You keep telling us that you can stop being saved without knowing it, but I have yet to see a verse that says that. You have shown verses that say that we can reject our salvation, and I agree that is possible, but where are the references that show is it possible to stop being saved without knowing it, or accidentally?

[Tj3]

( One Baptism being a calling that requires an the answer, appears to be the disagreement between Tj3 and myself. )[/B]

sndbay,

Let's be accurate. That is NOT the disagreement. The disagreement is what that ONE baptism is. You include water, I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

[sndbay]

sndbay,

Let's be accurate. That is NOT the disagreement. The disagreement is what that ONE baptism is. You include water, I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

Okay Tom... I disagree with you on water

I include water, because it is in the likeness of the Noah, when the water did save 8 souls from evil. Water is in that like figure of washing away the surrounding evil and wickedness.. It will cover or bury us in Christ, and God's hand of fire will nourished and protect us.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I believe Water was the baptism Christ suffered unto us with John.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Matthew 20:23 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

[sndbay]

sndbay,

I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

Tom, Measures according to HIS Will are given. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given in different measures.

1 Cr 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Proverbs 10:6 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

[sndbay]

sndbay,

I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

So what measure of the spiritual gifts would each have that do not follow HIS steps?


Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Christ Jesus is said to be full of the HOLY SPIRIT. (Luke 4:1)

In (Act 6) it speaks of full faith and Holy Spirit

[Tj3]

Okay Tom... I disagree with you on water

I include water, because it is in the likeness of the Noah, when the water did save 8 souls from evil.

"Likeness" - right. Likeness means symbolism.

Water is in that like figure of washing away the surrounding evil and wickedness..

A "like figure" which is symbolism.

[Tj3]

So what measure of the spiritual gifts would each have that do not follow HIS steps?

It depends upon what you mean by "follow Him". If you mean "saved", then scripture says none. That is a significant problem for you when we read Acts 10:47.

[sndbay]

It depends upon what you mean by "follow Him". If you mean "saved",, then scripture says none. That is a significant problem for you when we read Acts 10:47.

No, because this says baptize them..(with water)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

[sndbay]

"Likeness" - right. Likeness means symbolism.



A "like figure" which is symbolism.

A likeness in that it too SAVED, yes being symbolism to being saved by water. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

[sndbay]

Symbolism:

The flesh lives and breathes air of sin, and the water that saves is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is covered over us. Sin can't breath...sin can't live...

Buried with Christ, and Christ had paid for our sins on the cross


Discussion Finished

[Tj3]

No, because this says baptize them..(with water)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

AFTER they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Interesting how you omitted that part of the passage.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
NKJV

Symbolism:

The flesh lives and breathes air of sin, and the water that saves is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is covered over us. Sin can't breath...sin can't live...

Buried with Christ, and Christ had paid for our sins on the cross

Right - water in baptism is symbolic - we agree.

[sndbay]

AFTER they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Interesting how you omitted that part of the passage.

Not at all necessary because you had already claimed the presence of the Holy Spirit .. I claim the measure in gifts of the Holy Spirit is different. Scripture tells us measures according to God's Will are giving.

The Gentiles went on to be baptized as command because the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism includes the SAVING WATER... ( Living Water)

Right - water in baptism is symbolic - we agree.

The Holy Spirit's gift of Saving Water in baptism is as symbolic as the LIVING WATER

Now do we agree?

[Tj3]

Not at all necessary because you had already claimed the presence of the Holy Spirit.. I claim the measure in gifts of the Holy Spirit is different. Scripture tells us measures according to God's Will are giving.

So what is your point? Scripture says that ONLY the saved can have the Holy Spirit.

The Gentiles went on to be baptized as command

Yes, and no one is saying not to be baptized.

because the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism includes the SAVING WATER... ( Living Water)

You are adding to scripture. You won't find this given as the reason anywhere in Acts 10.

The Holy Spirit's gift of Saving Water in baptism is as symbolic as the LIVING WATER

You again add to scripture because water of baptism is nowhere called "living water". That phrase is used six places in scripture:

The Old Testament References are:

1) Song 4:12-15

12 A garden enclosed Is my sister, my spouse, A spring shut up, A fountain sealed. 13 Your plants are an orchard of pomegranates With pleasant fruits,
Fragrant henna with spikenard, 14 Spikenard and saffron, Calamus and cinnamon, With all trees of frankincense, Myrrh and aloes, With all the chief spices-- 15 A fountain of gardens, A well of living waters, And streams from Lebanon.
NKJV

Unless you think that we must all go to Lebanon to be baptized, this clearly has nothing to do with baptism.

2) Jer 2:12-13

12 Be astonished, O heavens, at this, And be horribly afraid; Be very desolate," says the LORD. 13 "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.
NKJV

The living waters here is defined as God Himself, not water of baptism.

3) Jer 17:13

13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
NKJV

Once again, it is shown to be God Himself, not the water of baptism.

4) Zech 14:6-9

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The LORD is one," And His name one.
NKJV

The living waters are to flow from God Himself (Jesus) when He rules directly from Jersualem. The living waters are from God Himself, not water of baptism.

And the last two are from the New Testament:

1) John 4:8-15

9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" 13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
NKJV

Jesus makes a clear distinction here between ordinary water and the living water that He gives. Once again, the living water comes from God Himself.

2) John 7:38-39

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

The living water here comes out of the believer and it is specifically spoken of as being the Holy Spirit. Once again, the living water is God.

So it is clear that the "living water" is God. To suggest that ordinary water used in a baptismal font is "living water" is a very dangerous teaching indeed, and is not found anywhere in scripture.

[sndbay]

The necessity or purpose that Christ be suffered on the cross, in order to open thoroughly and set before (one) in teaching that He died and raised again. (Acts 17:3)

The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.

And the necessity or purpose, is that Christ be suffered in baptism with open witness of heaven, and set before(one) teaching that we die with HIm, are buried, and able to raise as He raised.

(Romans 6:4)
(1 Peter 2:21)
(1 Peter 3:18)
(Col 2:12)

The element of that water is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.

One Faith/Christ the Living Water (John 4:10)
One Baptism/Holy Spirit the Saving Water (Romans 6:3-4-5)
One Lord (Eph 4:6 ) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Romans 6:6-10 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Symbolism:The Saving Water, The Living Water, all in the hands of God.
Father,Son,Holy Spirit


Tom, my part in this discussion is over...

[Tj3]

The necessity or purpose that Christ be suffered on the cross, in order to open thoroughly and set before (one) in teaching that He died and raised again. (Acts 17:3)

The necessity of Jesus to die on the cross was to pay the price for our sins:

Rev 1:5-6
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

His sacrifice was complete on the cross:

Heb 10:12-15
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

If the one sacrifice perfect forever those who are being sanctified, then nothing more was required for our salvation. And you will find nothing else in scripture. Note how many times you were required to add words to what scripture said, "baptism" and "living water" for examples. That is because scripture simply does not support your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.

And the necessity or purpose, is that Christ be suffered in baptism with open witness of heaven, and set before(one) teaching that we die with HIm, are buried, and able to raise as He raised.

Once again, this is the mikveh, a ritual ceremony that we find in the Old Testament. It was not necessary for salvation. If you say that it is then that is suggesting that Jesus needed to be saved of His sins, which would mean that He would not be qualified as our saviour, nor would He be God. The mikveh along with other rituals did nothing for salvation, but were simply acts of obedience to God, being done as a prophetic act of the coming of the sacrifice that Jesus was to make on the cross:

Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

Therefore being symbolic, it did nothing for salvation. As stated previous if it was done to make Jesus righteous, then Jesus was a sinner which would mean that gospel is a fake. On the other hand, if Jesus did it for the purposes of being obedient to a prophetic ritual, then by so doing He ensured that He remained righteousness by not committing a sin of omission.

One Baptism/Holy Spirit the Saving Water

There is on ONE baptism and only ONE saving water. It is not water that we drink, but as you nicely, but inadvertently pointed out in the prior message, that living water, saving water is that of the Holy Spirit:

Jer 2:13
13 "For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.
NKJV

Jer 17:13
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed.
"Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth,
Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
NKJV

That is why we are told in John 7:39 and others that the baptism is that of the Holy Spirit. Note in Jer 2:13, the people turned away from the living water, and tried digging cisterns to get ordinary water. That is what is happening when people look to water for their salvation instead of the true living waters that come from the Holy Spirit which we receive when we are saved through the cross.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

Why do people look to ordinary water for salvation, for the ONE baptism when God offers us the living waters of the Holy Spirit?

[arcura]

Tj3,
I did provide the verse.
Here it is again.
Matthew 6: 14. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I did provide the verse.
Here it is again.
Matthew 6: 14. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Putting aside any interpretations of this, are you saying that a person will have no knowledge of whether they have forgiven someone or not?