[Irulan]

Another religion that is gaining popularity: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Believers around the world.
http://www.venganza.org/

NK,

Thank you for the link and the laughter.

Humor is a prized gift and those who lack it are sad indeed!

[phildebenham]

Poor Phil, no sense of humour. Sad.

Oh, but I do have a sense of humor... I laugh at myself for hitting the wrong button and responding to your post instead of the preceding one as I had intended. You will note that I went back and posted the same response to that post... which made since there, but didn't make since concerning your flying spaghetti post. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[NeedKarma]

Oh I see. I guess the negative rep kind of did hurt my feelings. I'm only human. :)

No harm no foul then. Let's carry on.

[31pumpkin]

I believe (and I have found that it (everything) is EASIER to believe)

This life is harder without a savior. Call it a crutch, (like my "stubborn husband" does) call it that, but it is really a hidden titanium spiritual rod that protects their body & soul from the negative. Now some people really believe but make all kinds of excuses why they can't & won't hear the word of the Lord. And as a
Christian I know that faith comes from hearing , & hearing the word of the Lord. Some people really do not want to go to church and get "saved" because now they will think they will have to continue going to church! But God is faithful. In His great plan, He knows who are His. And if they only continue reading faithful literature from time to time, hearing the Faithful ministers on TV or radio, & praying, then the timing is right or ripe for this person to be exactly where they are spiritually... for they are able to hear the Lord's voice speak to their heart through prayer for guidance & direction. For the record: Christians do HEAR the voice of Jesus & it is no delusion.There is softness in His still small voice which is never doubted for anything else but His. (ie: noise or hearing voices as in a psychosis) I can think of only one Prophet that actually SAW God. ISAIAH. but I'm not sure, so someone out there might help me out with that. Many in the Bible of course saw Jesus, and nowadays "we" have to wait till we are finished from this life to see Jesus again.

About how some Bibles sit on peoples shelves...
One good reason I see for that is that these individuals have no real source or teachers from which to be able to apply what they read,
For daily living & such.
The Bible Scripture is taken out of context to them, & they get confused.
Where Scriptures are the answers for that individual, that is the beauty of Religion, but they relly never feel it, & the Bible sits here & there.
One Pastor of a Church I attended for 6yrs before I moved had this very effect on my spirit. This man of God said in so many ways to the congregation that certain parts of the Scripture will stand out to you in your individual spirit & that was important , in how the Lord was especially letting you know or see something absolutely & positively written for YOU to see & or hear.

Christians do have an instruction from the Lord to" go & make disciples" in this world. That is why we are always prompted to do such.
Some people are stubborn & want to continue on with" their"will be done.
There is always hope for them where there is life. We pray for people like this, that's all that can be done.

Maybe I won't get to see my husband in the next life & maybe I will.. there's still work to be done, and done and dddone. But I'm happy with the thought that I will see my children there one day & others that have gone to "sleep" too.

Cheers!

[ScottGem]

This life is harder without a savior. Call it a crutch, (like my "stubborn husband" does) call it that, but it is really a hidden titanium spiritual rod that protects their body & soul from the negative.

In His great plan, He knows who are His.

For the record: Christians do HEAR the voice of Jesus & it is no delusion.

Christians do have an instruction from the Lord to" go & make disciples" in this world.

Some people are stubborn & want to continue on with" their"will be done. There is always hope for them where there is life. We pray for people like this, that's all that can be done.

Maybe I wont get to see my husband in the next life & maybe I will..there's still work to be done, and done and dddone. But I'm happy with the thought that I will see my children there one day & others that have gone to "sleep" too.

Cheers!

Life is harder for who? Sounds like you are proving what your husband feels. By using a savior as this spirtual protection, you are using a crutch. Maybe that works for you, but as long as you feel its right and necessary for everyone (as you notes seem to say), then that's wrong.

This is one of the main reasons for my beliefs. "In his great plan" Umm, what plan is that? The one that devastates this planet with a tsunami? Or the one that sets people against one another to maim and kill innocents? Or the one that causes the death of a seeming saint of a woman (Dana Reeve) is did nothing but good in this world? Or the one where father kill their babies by shaking them death? Or the one where priests abuse their powers by sexually abusing their parishioners? If your only answer is "god moves in mysterious ways", don't bother!

For the record, you may believe you hear God, but I don't see any proof, that its just simply your thoughts.

Yes, Christians are instructed to be missionaries. And what a great deal of harm has been done as a part of that instruction.

And, yet again, I say that this attitude that if one doesn't believe in this whole pearly gates rigamarole, then one will suffer eternal damnation is a crock. Its simply a scare tactic to keep people in the fold and get others to go along.

[orange]

I think animeluver06 left 3 weeks. Ago. I now we are up to at least Junior stage?

No she's still around. She was online 2 days ago. She just isn't posting in this thread, but she has said that she enjoys everything that's been said here, so we're not doing her a disservice.

Orange: I must quote you. "I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians do."
First I would like to know what that is because perhaps your knowledge of impressionable Christian people was not available to you thus far.

Oh boy... long story. I have been around many different Christians in my life, both mainstream and fundamentalists. I was in several Christian foster homes, and went to a Catholic boarding school for several years. I also tried being a Christian as a young adult, for a while. The church I was in was pentecostal. I left it after a scandal in which the pastor was accused of stealing money from the church and being inappropriate with young girls. The church split, and half the people went with the pastor, and half formed their own church. I had friends on either side, but everyone expected me to choose a side. When I went to one side, the people on the other side, who used to be good friends, wouldn't speak to me anymore. I couldn't stand the hatred so I just left completely and have never gone back.

I could also give you many examples in my childhood where I was terrorized by Christian foster parents. Here's one: I was about 7 years old, and there was a visiting ministry pastor who said that because I was a shy and withdrawn child I had demons. So then a bunch of adults pinned me to the floor and they "prayed" over me (it was more like yelling and screaming). These parents also spanked me with a paddle practically every day, sometimes more than once a day. I have many more examples... it would take pages and pages to go into it all.

However, the incidents at the church and in my childhood is not what turned me off Christianity. I have enough insight to realize that there are good and bad people in every religion, and that these things could have happened to me in a Buddhist or Jewish foster home just as easily. No, what I meant when I said I am turned off is that I don't like fundamentalism. I mentioned Christians specifically, because jduke and I were discussing Christianity. It's not just fundamentalist Christians I don't like, Islamic fundamentalists, ultra Orthodox Jews, etc... to me they're all the same: preaching, the trying to convert others, ignorance and disrespect of other faiths and beliefs, judgemental attitudes and judgmental statements made. All fundamentalists turn me off. I believe that true Christians don't do this; that's why I said in my statement "people who claim to be Christians"... I have Christian friends who would never dream of saying the things that I've heard (or read, rather) on this forum. Some of the stuff said here really shocks and saddens me.

Actually I have a very good relationship with the Ukrainian Catholic nuns who taught me in my boarding school and basically raised me to be a responsible woman. They saved me from the fate of many of my foster siblings, who ended up on drugs, into prostitution, and even dead. They taught me so much, and yet they were always very respectful of the fact that my biological parents were Jews. They never tried to convince me to be a Catholic. As I was in a Catholic school, I had to participate in all the activities, mass, etc, and be respectful, but at the same time, they encouraged me to learn about being Jewish and to be proud of it. In fact, at Jewish holiday times, they always used to make me do extra assignments pertaining to Judaism, and present them to the class. I used to hate it haha but I really learned a lot. I am still very good friends with all the nuns, they came to my wedding and are excited about the baby I'm having in the summer. We have long conversations and they NEVER EVER spout scriptures at me or tell me I should be a Christian. In fact, if I was ever to be a Christian, I would want to be like them.

Hope that answers your question. It's fundamentalist attitudes in ANY faith that I object to, not Christians specifically.

[arcura]

It disturbs me that you were so mistreated.
Unfortunately it has happened to many people.
In reality the perentage of mistreated people is small but that is of no help to those who were.
I wish and pray for a far better future or you than the bad you experienced in the past.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[31pumpkin]

I'd like to respond to the 1st responder 1st.

Hello, ScottGem from LI, N.Y... I was born in Brooklyn so yes I can easily say, "u dont want to believe anything, so forgetaboutit!"

1) I don't believe I've I've heard- I 've heard, to be exact... period. Since this doesn't happen for you then it is only an ojective fact for me to state that- THAT is for reproof (statistics) about Christians not hearing or seeing something to confirm their beliefs. By the way, His voice comes with a feeling . A soothing, entle feeling, that is always compassionate.
2) About this whole easier/harder life thing. Well, my husband hasn't been where I've been spiritually & emotionally. He hasn't suffered TRAUMATIC things . I'm still getting double back in blessings now... so don't ever feel sorry for me! So, some come to Jesus when they are humbled to their knees, & some grow up knowing Him . In Mt. 11:28 Jesus says to come to Him all who are weary & burdened & I will give you rest. For my yoke is EASY and my burden is light.
If you actually read the Bible someday, I recommend that you start with the New Testament . Some will disagree with that. That's their style. Fine.
3) now about " a lot of harm has been done as part of that instruction.
Can you state anything specific? In general I think there is corruption in any area, ie: politics,etc. That is why this country needs to have the separation of Church & State. So we can be a society without discrimination. Having a respect for others, for the good of the Nation.

As for my my husband & you are concerned... I was responding to someone's note about them calling The Faith a crutch. He's hasn't (husband) hasn't said that,actually in a long time. He is coming around slowly. He sees the results.
from those believing, & he admits much to that issue. Thankyou for reading this, even if it is "therapy" for me.

Isn't great all the resources one can participate in?

Rainy Day People
Don't hide love inside
They just pass it on

Gordon Lightfoot

[orange]

In reality the perentage of mistreated people is small but that is of no help to those who were.

Yeah I agree with you there. I have friends who were raised Christian and had no abuse whatsoever. They had great childhoods. Like I said in my last post there are good and bad people everywhere. But once something bad has happened to you it is pretty difficult to forget. In fact to this day I can't watch any of those Sunday morning TV evangelists, even for a minute, because it triggers me so badly that I literally become physically ill.

Anyway, I have lots of Christian friends, and like I said it's not Christianty I object to, it's the fundamentalism and extremism.

[ScottGem]

I'd like to respond to the 1st responder 1st.

Hello, ScottGem from LI, N.Y...I was born in Brooklyn so yes I can easily say, "u dont want to believe anything, so forgetaboutit!"

I grew up mostly in Brooklyn (Coney Island area) But that's neither here nor there.

1) Ok, so you've heard. Can you prove it? Do you have recordings? Look I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs. You are entitled to them and if they make you feel better, stronger, whatever, then I am very happy for you.
2) But here is the big problem I have, you aren't content being happy with your beliefs. You have to proselytize and get me to agree that your faith is the only true one. That if I believe differently from you I am lost in some way. You talk about having respect for others, yet you don't seem to have respect for the beliefs of people that don't agree with yours. You can't let me be happy with my beliefs as I can let you be happy with yours.
3) Sure I can be specific. Lets start with the Crusades, then segue into the Spanish Inquisition. How about the Christian missionaries who spread throughout what's now called the third world. How many so called savages were killed when these missionaries bought civilized sicknesses to lands that had never had them and had no immunities. Just some examples.

And since we are quoting scriptures. I don't have the exact verse on hand, I'll find it if you want. But lets take a look at Job. Job was considered to be a very righteous man. So righteous that the Lord spared him in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet this righteous man offered his young daughters (not in marriage) to 2 men if they would leave him alone. This is the Word of God we are supposed to heed and obey?

I believe I was the one who called religion a crutch. I stand by that.

As an aside to arcura. You can disagree all you want. That is your right. But please afford me the same right to disagree. What you see as negativism, I see as reality. What you call an attitude, I see as conclusions derived from concrete evidence.

[jduke44]

And since we are quoting scriptures. I don't have the exact verse on hand, I'll find it if you want. But lets take a look at Job. Job was considered to be a very righteous man. So righteous that the Lord spared him in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet this righteous man offered his young daughters (not in marriage) to 2 men if they would leave him alone. This is the Word of God we are supposed to heed and obey?

Scott, I am not trying to persuade you to believe as I do nor criticize you for not knowing this but it was Lot that gave his daughters to the men.

Can I tell the story a little to explain why that might be in there? The bible is also a history book of events that happened. God allowed things to be in there to show examples of things. This is in the Old Testament. Lot and his uncle Abraham parted ways. Lot decided to go in a land the looked prosperous. The problem is, the people were unrighteous in every way (according to God). Lot being a righteous man, got caught up in there ways. The two men were homosexuals who wanted the men that were there. Him being a righteous man would rather have the men not be caught up the sin of homosexuality (again God's law not necessarily mine) he gave his daughters to them. God did not in any way condone this act. We are humans just like everyone else. We mess up just like anyone else. That is the story in a nutshell. :)

I do understand where you are coming from. You hold your position very strongly and are pretty consistent with your thinking. For that I commend you.

[arcura]

ScottGem,
Of course you can disagree with me, some others have, and some new ones who come along may.
But you like to site the bad parts of things and seem to ignore the much greater picture of good.
I would rather see the good while acknowledging the bad.
The good vs. bad sort of thing happens throughout history in all cultures and societies.
This world is miserable enough without me pointing out and whining over the bad that has and does happen.
All I can do about it is learn from it and try not to make the same mistakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[phildebenham]

That's an awful lot of eisegesis, arcura.

[Tommyp!972]

Main Entry: eis·ege·sis
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS
Compliments of:Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

[phildebenham]

Main Entry: eis·ege·sis
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS
compliments of:Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.

[arcura]

phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[ScottGem]

Scott, I am not trying to persuade you to believe as I do nor criticize you for not knowing this but it was Lot that gave his daughters to the men.

Thanks for the correction. It was a while ago when I researched this for some reason that it was Job stuck in my mind.

As for your expanded version of it, I don't recall any reference to homosexuality in the passages I read. I'll have to see if I can find it and review it.

[ScottGem]

But you like to site the bad parts of things and seem to ignore the much greater picture of good.
I would rather see the good while acknowledging the bad.

No I don't believe I do. My comments here have been designed to point out the other side of the coin. While I may have given short shrift to the positive sides, that doesn't mean I don't see or acknowledge them.

I have said, in several responses, that I am very happy for the people who feel their faith has helped them. I definitely acknowledge that faith can be a powerful thing. I have also indicated not only approval, but that I follow what is called the Judeo-Christian ethic. Which comes both the Old and New Testaments.

Clearly there is good in organized religion. But that does not mean that practicing an organized religion is right for everyone. That does not mean there is any one religion that is the true one. Yet some people in this thread have taken that position and I will argue against that.

phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Please show me someone who has been "studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years". Besides Mel Brook's 2000 year old man. :)

Seriously though, the key word in the definition is interpretation. The fact is that biblical scholars have intepreted and re-intepreted The Bible many times over those two millennium. There are differing interpretations for many, many passages.

[fredg]

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.

[NeedKarma]

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.

How about you prove it?