[Allheart]

Please help me understand why this should not upset me because it does. I was so close to having my mind made up in voting for Barack. So close to the point it felt good and right. And then this. And this is not that made up slop email stuff trying to hurt him, this is real.

It is one thing for an American Citizen to choose not to place their hand over their heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, but for someone, holding a public office and on his way to holding the highest office of the United States of America choosing not to place his hand over his heart, just is more than I can understand.

If he makes it into office, what will be his next stance? That scares me as well.

When looking at the video and seeing this picture, it reminds me of being in church when it gets to the point of kneeling, as all Catholics do. There are times non-Catholics attend Catholic mass for one reason or another (funerals, weddings etc) and when it gets to the time of the mass to kneel they remain seated and do not kneel, which is fine and correct, because they are not Catholic and do not have to.

But Barack is an American - and this gesture is symbolic. And to not do it, to me is deeply troubling.

Would it prevent me from voting for him. If I was not satisified 100% of his reason... yes it would.

So why is this not significant. Am I giving it more weight then it calls for?

[oneguyinohio]

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Barack Obama and the National Anthem

Hope this helps. Lots of reading and other pictures to give a more complete idea of the candidate.

I know at my sons scout meeting, I felt odd about how to place my hand over my heart during the pledge, because I was never a scout, so I didn't want to do it as some of the members did, with their two or three finger salute... but as I was trying to decide if I should stand their politely or what, I got a funny look from one of the parents... I hope he didn't think I was antiamerican or something. I mean, my ancestry goes back into the early colonies with many people fighting in the Revolutionary War... and I'm happy for my heritage as well as where I live.

My plan is to look at all of the candidates as a whole, and vote for the one that I can understand the best, and believe in. I admit that Obama was not at all a possibility for me in the beginning... I did not feel comfortable with his religion, race, or even name... I wasn't sure what he might bring to the table as far as relating to my way of life, but the more I read and hear, I am more open.

Despite all of his differences, he seems a lot closer to understanding my life than some oil rich stooge born with a silver spoon... or a manipulative calculating liberated marriage for power ride the shirt tale type money hungry woman.

[tomder55]

You know what I think of Obama.There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about voting for him (see my signature space)... This isn't one of them .

This picture is a non-issue. We do not know the circumstances about this snapshot in time . On another thread I posted a picture of President Bush with his hand somewhere around his small intestines instead of his heart . What did that mean ? That he was not saluting the flag ? Perhaps the national anthem had just completed ? I don't know .

Perhaps this photo will ease your mind :



By the way as a Catholic I have been to mass and have many times seen Catholics not kneeling . I usually attribute that to perhaps having bad knees ? I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

[NeedKarma]

Thanks Tom. I saw you post that pic (in another thread) of Bush with his hand somewhere other than his heart to help people understand that it's not a slight.

[Allheart]

I do feel better and I thank you all. I do not normally even entertain this sort of smear
Campaign (like the exchanging speeches incident... who cared about that one. And I think that only made the Hillary's people look like pathetic school children)

But I saw the video and I looked and waited and waited... it was pretty long. And I guess my mind just swirled with it.

This poor man all that has been said about it. I tell you what, what people don't realize, is that it brings him more attention, and when it is flushed out to and shown as blantanly untrue, it makes him look stronger and makes people gravitate to him. This was actually a photo and video and was hard to say it didn't happen.

My gut was saying, there's really nothing to it, but my heart was really scared and so I thought I would come to the experts :). Thanks.

Tom, yes I know about the Catholics with bad knees :). But some of my friends are non-Catholic and we have attended funeral masses and weddings together and the poor things are so lost (all the up and down we do... I just whisper to them it's okay to remain seated)
But that's what flashed in my mind when seeing this.

Well I do feel better. This poor man. The speech thing really turned me off from Hillary.

Concentrate on the darn issues not what the other camp is doing. Bring the issues to the forefront, speak your views, and stop trying to expose things that just aren't there (especially when you have more to hide then those you are trying to expose)

Oh boy - will we ever have a political race without all the negative mud slinging.

Many thanks again.

[tomder55]

Oh boy - will we ever have a political race without all the negative mud slinging.

The answer to that is no . When you study history some more you will find that the campaigns today are a big improvement over the ones conducted by the founding fathers themselves. Back then the printed press was the equivalent of today's internet and they had no problem at all with smearing their opponent with the most vile unsubstantiated charges while penning them under a pseudonym. Duels were fought.. Alexander Hamilton was killed by Aaron Burr over just this type of politicking .

[Allheart]

the answer to that is no . When you study history some more you will find that the campaigns today are a big improvement over the ones conducted by the founding fathers themselves. Back then the printed press was the equivalent of today's internet and they had no problem at all with smearing their opponent with the most vile unsubstantiated charges while penning them under a pseudonym. Duels were fought ..Alexander Hamilton was killed by Aaron Burr over just this type of politicking .

And I find that to be so sad Tom. In the job I hold... integrity must be number one. Every word we say, everything we do MUST be with integrity. There are zero exceptions.
Why can we not expect the same out of the highest office in America?

Is it to naïve to think that all of us Americans ban together and not cast one vote and demand at least a no smear political campaign.

I do not want a President, and either does any American, who is skilled at uncovering dirt, we want an honest leader, who is skilled in running the country.

[Fr_Chuck]

I agree, I would never vote for him for a 100 other reasons but this is not one of them, he has lead the pledge in the senate before and more, And as a Catholic I often don't knee either all the time but sit with my head bowed. His liberal ideas and his desire to spend, spend spend, should be your real fear.

[Allheart]

I was just making sure it wasn't a strong belief of his, not to hold his hand to is heart. For me it would have been huge, as silling as that may seem and I am quite relieved that it indeed is not the reason.

Hillary, there are issues I like a lot that she says she is going to do... but the speech thing in trying to make Barack look bad, really turned me off. I guess it falls back on my integrity thing.

McCain - still concerns me in keeping our kids in that war.

I just don't know. I truly don't.

[tomder55]

Is it to naïve to think that all of us Americans ban together and not cast one vote and demand at least a no smear political campaign.

I hear you. Unfortunately we will not see it anytime soon.

Yesterday as an example the NY Slimes made unsubstantiated charges on their front page against the Republican candidate ;John McCain ,they endorsed only 3 weeks ago. They were working on the story for months before and yet made their endorsement of him before Super Tues . NY primary .

The Slimes fancies itself as the paper of record but a close examination of the article reveals that they did not even live up to their low standards of providing sources or reasons their source chooses to remain anonymous.

They dredged up unproven charges of infidelity and impropriety without any reasonable evidence just to smear him and to plant the seeds so they can rehash stories about McCain that are sometimes true but mostly mere speculation going back to his navy days .

[shygrneyzs]

While I am not a Barack fan and do not plan on voting for him, I think Hilary has really stepped up and is showing her true nature. Right now, I do not believe much of anything that comes out until I can verify it in three separate sources - and not all of the same political view point. It is going to get more ugly and it is not even March 1st. Sighs.

[Allheart]

I hear ya. Unfortunately we will not see it anytime soon.

Yesterday as an example the NY Slimes made unsubstantiated charges on their front page against the Republican candidate ;John McCain ,they endorsed only 3 weeks ago. They were working on the story for months before and yet made their endorsement of him before Super Tues . NY primary .

The Slimes fancies itself as the paper of record but a close examination of the article reveals that they did not even live up to their low standards of providing sources or reasons why their source chooses to remain anonymous.

They dredged up unproven charges of infidelity and impropriety without any reasonable evidence just to smear him and to plant the seeds so they can rehash stories about McCain that are sometimes true but mostly mere speculation going back to his navy days .

Yes, I heard about that... and it belongs back in the trash bucket where it came from as far as I am concerned.

I LOVED McCain for so long - and I still do. What he gave to this country is more then any of us can even begin to say thank you for. I would be proud if he were President as well as Barack but when I took that poll Barack came out first. I think who they choose as running mates will help a great deal as well in making a decision.

[Allheart]

While I am not a Barack fan and do not plan on voting for him, I think Hilary has really stepped up and is showing her true nature. Right now, I do not believe much of anything that comes out until I can verify it in three separate sources - and not all of the same political view point. It is going to get more ugly and it is not even March 1st. sighs.

Shy that is so untrue. And it gets to be a little insulting almost as though they think Americans will chew and swallow what they feed us. I was really liking Hillary and trying to see passed all the past, those who had such contempt for her and just zeroing in on what she was saying, and then her and/or her people just went to ugly for me.

At the same time, I was considering Barack and then the hand over heart thing popped up.. but now that's a non-issue :).

And was working my way back to McCain, as I did like him at one time as well.

I do think running mates will help clear things more ( I hope).

If this does get worse. I for one will toon them all out. Night night and see you. I don't have the heart for all that ugliness.

We don't want that for our country dear politicians. Cripes parents teach their children to "play nice"...

[speechlesstx]

Yes Allheart, even those of us most fervently against Obama have refuted the National Anthem/he's a Muslim/swore his oath on the Koran nonsense several times, they are non-issues. My question is will the other side show the same fairness in coming out against the NY Times' non-specific anonymous "suggestion" of impropriety by McCain?

[Allheart]

Yes Allheart, even those of us most fervently against Obama have refuted the National Anthem/he's a Muslim/swore his oath on the Koran nonsense several times, they are non-issues. My question is will the other side show the same fairness in coming out against the NY Times' non-specific anonymous "suggestion" of impropriety by McCain?

Very good question. Let's hope so.

Can you imagine the things we are going to have to sift through to determine is real or memorex? :D

This really does hurt voter turn out. When it gets too ugly.

[tomder55]

Can you imagine the things we are going to have to sift through to determine is real or memorex? :D

I believe in the debate Hillary uses the word Xerox in describing Obama and his use of other people's speeches :D

[Allheart]

I believe in the debate Hillary uses the word Xerox in describing Obama and his use of other people's speeches :D

Oooooh that girl is a spitfire isn't she? :D

( have to admit :o I chuckled... ahhhh we have to chuckle at some of this mess.. Xerox... me oh my )

[susangpyp]

There will be a lot of untrue things that will be said about candidates. Go to snopes.com and check them out. Research and learn. I've heard so much stuff about all the candidates that are NOT true. I've had people forward me these ridiculous emails about all the candidates. The mudslinging is across party lines. It's horrible. Now there is Photoshop and a lot of ways to make something look "real" that is absolutely fake.

I've had no less than 5 people forward me the planted and untrue story that Obama is a Muslim... he is NOT a Muslim!! He is a Christian. I've heard the words of all the candidates taken out of context and twisted to mean something they don't mean. And we're just getting started folks.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay informed and don't let "rumors" or innuendo sway your vote. Look at the candidates records and decide for yourself.

We need an informed electorate now. Please stay informed no matter which way you vote.

[Allheart]

There will be a lot of untrue things that will be said about candidates. Go to snopes.com and check them out. Research and learn. I've heard so much stuff about all the candidates that are NOT true. I've had people forward me these ridiculous emails about all the candidates. The mudslinging is across party lines. It's horrible. Now there is Photoshop and a lot of ways to make something look "real" that is absolutely fake.

I've had no less than 5 people forward me the planted and untrue story that Obama is a Muslim...he is NOT a Muslim!!! He is a Christian. I've heard the words of all the candidates taken out of context and twisted to mean something they don't mean. And we're just getting started folks.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay informed and don't let "rumors" or innuendo sway your vote. Look at the candidates records and decide for yourself.

We need an informed electorate now. Please stay informed no matter which way you vote.

Well said Susan... ( I owe susan 1 green guy ;) Very well said. I, as a rule don't feed into the garbage that is attempted to be fed to all of us. But I saw the picture and the video and tried so hard to justify it in my mind, but I was at such a loss. So I thought... hmmmm, let me come right to those who have been blessed with so much intelligence and can shed some light..

And I have to hand it to EVERYONE, no matter what side their allegiance is, they were able to put all of that aside and shed the light honestly... and I think I forgot to thank everyone... so THANK YOU.

But I am still at a loss as to who just yet and the mud slinging only confuses me more.
But like I was saying before, who they pick as running mates, will help with my choice and probably a lot others.

But very well Said Susan!!

[NeedKarma]

We could start a trend here on this board by posting the positive things surrounding a candidate. All I ever see on this board is putting a candidate in a negative light.