[George_1950]

Hate America Firsters want to scuttle Iraq in a manner similar to their conduct with South Vietnam. "Vietnam gave the United States the reputation for not supporting its allies. The shame of Vietnam is not that we were there in the first place, but that we betrayed our ally in the end. It was Congress that turned its back on the promises of the Paris accord."

The entire piece is: Foreign Affairs - Iraq: Learning the Lessons of Vietnam - Melvin R. Laird

[NeedKarma]

Hate America Firsters

What/Who's that??

[Dark_crow]

What congress did in Vietnam was tie the hands of the military, and not nearly to that entrant in Iraq…I wouldn't worry too much, I think we will be there for years.

[excon]

Hello George:

So, you're saying that even if we were wrong to start the fight, we should keep on fighting simply because we started it.

Huh??

It's that kind of dumb stuff that cost 58,000 dead Amercians in Vietnam, and over 3,000 dead Americans in Iraq, and still counting...

excon

[tomder55]

George ;don't you know that the legacy of Vietnam is for the left to define?

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?
A: It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?
A: Keenly.

Q: Why?
A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.
N.Vietnam Col. Bui Tin

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

Sorry, but what caused 58,000 dead Americans in Vietnam was an unwillingness by libs to committ to the fight... as DC put it, the tying of the hands of the military.

If you start a street fight, do you stop fighting if you think you were wrong to start the fight in the first place? Or do you finish off the other guy before he gets a chance to get one in on you? If you choose the former, you are going to get you @$$ handed to you. You finish the fight, and THEN you worry about who's fault it was.

Regardless of whether you agree with going into Iraq in the first place or not, we ARE there, and we CANNOT just pull out. Not only is it irresponsible to do so, and not only would it leave a power vacuum that would be exploited by the bad guys, but it also creates the opening for the enemy to attack us here. We cannot afford to give the enemy that openning... even if we were wrong to start the war, a point that I disagree with.

Lack of commitment is what causes casualties. The only solution is unswerving commitment to end the war by destroying the enemy's ability to wage war.

Elliot

[excon]

America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win. N.Vietnam Col. Bui Tin

Hello tom:

Lost?? I suppose it would be HIS perspective that we lost - yours too. Not mine, and I was there.

In real life, our boys stopped getting killed. The domino didn't happen. We're at peace with them today.

I don't know. Kind of looks victorious to me.

But I'm curious. How many more dead American boys would have been OK, and what different ending than we have now would you have preferred?

excon

[George_1950]

excon writes in part: "...what different ending than we have now would you have preferred?"

This is OK with you, excon? "A 99% voter turnout was officially reported for the National Assembly elections, despite the fact that there were just 875 candidates for 493 seats, all with prior approval from the Vietnam Communist Party and its Fatherland Front. All but 150 candidates were party members, and of the 150 non-party members only 43 were elected, less than the 50 hoped for by election organizers. Of these 150 non-party candidates, 30 were self-nominated -- 238 self-nominated candidates had sought approval -- but only one self-nominated candidate was elected."

See more at : Vietnam Human Rights Journal

Why, isn't it amazing that they get 99% turnout?

[tomder55]

The point of the quote George cites is that We made a commitment to the South Vietnam government AFTER a Peace treaty was signed. We abandoned that commitment after the North Vietnam gvt violated that peace treaty . That doesn't bother you ?

The dominos didn't happen . Tell that to the millions dead in the killing fields of Cambodia .Laos also fell . Tell that to the boat people or the countless numbers of South Vietnamese consigned to reeducation camps to die. I guess because they all did not fall means that the theory was therefore false.

[Dark_crow]

Hello tom:

Lost???? I suppose it would be HIS perspective that we lost - yours too. Not mine, and I was there.

In real life, our boys stopped getting killed. The domino didn't happen. We're at peace with them today.

I dunno. Kinda looks victorious to me.

But I’m curious. How many more dead American boys would have been ok, and what different ending than we have now would you have preferred?

excon

We sent in troops to prevent the South Vietnamese government from collapsing. Ultimately, however, the United States failed to achieve its goal, and in 1975 Vietnam was reunified under Communist control; in 1976 it officially became the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. During the conflict, approximately 3 to 4 million Vietnamese on both sides were killed, in addition to another 1.5 to 2 million Lao and Cambodians who were drawn into the war.:D

VietnamWar.com:The Vietnam War - America's Longest War, American Soldiers Fought and Died Here to Defend Our Freedom. The Vietnam War was the longest military conflict in U.S. history. The hostilities in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia claimed the lives

[excon]

Hello again:

They ain't great countries. THAT, however, isn't and never was the reason we were given to start the war. It's the justification you use when the lie that WAS given has been exposed.

Tell me, if the reason we go in is cause there's a bad guy in charge whose doing lots of killing, why haven't we gone into Darfur?? Sudan? Rwanda?? East Timor??

So STOP with BS. We DON'T go to war to protect people. We didn't do in in Vietnam, and we didn't do it in Iraq. I don't know WHY we went into Iraq, but it WASN'T because Saddam was a bad guy. Really. I was around then. I remember.

excon

[Dark_crow]

What spin-master and fishmonger wrote that post for you? We had already been at war with Communism for years. It was for that reason we went, not to help people, but for what we thought was in our best interest.