[excon]

Why should sex be taught at all outside the home? ..... let schools stay out of it............. The media are complicit in this issue.

Hello again, El:

Bingo... Sadly, however, most parents don't. You say the kids should remain ignorant. I say they shouldn't.

Regarding the media; You, of the right wing persuasion, think the media CREATES popular culture. I, of the correct wing persuasion, understand that the media only REFLECTS popular culture.

excon

[Wondergirl]

N0help4u agrees: my statement was from hearing parents telling what their kids are being taught in grade school. My kids told me similar stuff. Those are just some sites I looked up on the subject.

I was a grade school teacher. I have two children who attended school. I was in the local PTA and even served as an officer. I helped out at many fund-raising events. In short, I was part of many converstions with other parents.

Unfortunately, too many of them stretch the truth to fit into their own religious agenda. If this is the report from public schools: "School officials said they were not seeking to promote a [homosexual] agenda, beyond tolerance and a kind of cultural literacy," there are parents who will decide that public school students are being given a green light to "choose homosexuality." And that's not the case at all.

[ETWolverine]

Oh, ETW, how we disagree! :D



The point is they are lying to the kids to scare them. Giving false information to scare kids into doing what you want is not education. Beyond that, poorly educated teens become poorly educated adults. It is my opinion that the kids who are taught the incorrect failure rate of condoms might figure "Well, these things don't work anyway, might as well not use them". So, knowing the actual failure rate might not prevent teen sex, but it helps prevents teen pregnancy. If given the choice of the two - I want fewer teen mothers. Ideally you drop both figures, but lying isn't going to do that.



That says it all. From a biological standpoint the moment of conception produces a blatocyst, which is NOT a life. It is personal and religous opinion when life begins. So no, it's NOT scientifically accurate, it's religiously acurate which doesn't belong in a health class. Read my link - there's a great deal about the needs of men and women in there too which is rather disturbing and not scientifically based at all.



Because sex ed is not just about preventing teen sex and teen pregnancy. It's sex EDUCATION. It's like an extra biology class, but better. If incorrect information were being taught in a bio class, would you object? I don't understand why you object to informing students - you can have it both ways. Equip them with the knowledge they need to make correct decisions in the future and tell them not to do it. Telling them condoms work doesn't have to be equal to giving them the green light to sneak behind the bleachers. And "this scientific knowledge has improved things" by encouraging students to become health care professionals, to not be afraid of people with HIV, to know you can't catch an STD from a toilet seat, and you can't get pregnant from touching someone genitals. Oh, and to have protected sex when they DO engage (teen or adult).



I agree, kids are getting a mixed message. I don't agree that informing kids about contraception gives them permission to have sex. Lots of married couples use condoms and birth control (everyone I know) and if they learned in school these things don't work, why would they think they would work as an adult? I suppose you might be of the opinion sex should be for procreation only, but I don't think you are. Further, you have previously stated you don't care what adults do, so shouldn't adults be educated too? Shouldn't we send our kids into adulthood with the proper knowledge to make correct decisions?



Yes, the numbers have not shown the objective to be working, but I was in high school less than 10 years ago - I remember sex ed. It was worthless. It came too late (meaning many people I knew were already having sex) and it was poorly designed. It was taught just like a bio class - no emphasis on WHY one should wait was there, except maybe a few mentions. No mention of the impact of having a child as a teen, no mention of the impact sex can have on a teen relationship. I think we spent a day on sex ed, we spent more time on drinking and the effects of alcohol. Oh, and they told us more often not to drink than not to have sex. The current curriculum is BROKEN, but a curriculum full of lies and scare tactics is not the answer. This will make speechless have a heart attack (:)).... but I agree with PP about having comprehensive sex ed from the beginning of school. I think if we start young we can prevent kids from having sex to early.



I think I've explained why I don't agree with this lesson plan - it's doesn't teach kids anything. School is about receiving an education. By all means, if you don't want your kids to know how condoms actually work, how STDs are transmitted, what can be done to prevent them, what can be done to prevent pregnancy and so on, opt them out and teach them your lesson plan above. MY kids will be informed. BTW, #4 is not "scientifically accurate". Both things will change your life forever, but it won't necessarily change it for the worse.

Also, you seem to waiver - you say "no sex before marriage" but you've previously said (in another thread) you don't care what adults do. I don't think teens should be having sex, but I think sex before marriage is VERY important.

It's my opinion that the kids who don't have sex until later in life do so because of the lessons taught at home, not at school. The lessons at school might reinforce their decison, it might make some kids who are on the fence go the right way, but really, it comes from the home. Sex ed isn't what is causing teen pregnancy and sex numbers to go up, it's lack of parental involvement.

Oh... so we're worried about kids getting "accurate" information about sex, but not about them getting an education in reading, writing and arithmatic, history, geography, social sciences, etc. Why are "educators" so worried about making sure kids know about sex, but willing to sacrifice on REAL education? Please don't tell me how worried about education our schools are when 80% of kids can't find their own home state on a globe. EDUCATION is the LAST thing on school administrations' minds. Except when it comes to "GLBT issues", how to use a condom, and how to have "safe sex"... then suddenly we're worried about getting "accurate information" to kids.

So tell me, Jillian, why were there so many fewer teen pregnancies and cases of teen sex during the 50s and prior... before sex-ed became a hot topic? If kids were avoiding pregnancy and not having sex BEFORE sex-ed, but are having MORE sex and getting pregnant more often AFTER sex-ed started, what does that tell you about sex ed?

Somehow, kids in the 50s and earlier learned the lessons of how to avoid STDs and pregnancy without the schools stepping in to give them "accurate information". And they managed to have babies after getting married too, so their natural abilities were not inhibited by not having sex-ed classes. The lack of "accurate information" didn't hurt them.

Since the 60s, however, sex-ed has become the norm. Kids have learned about condoms, about BC, about STDs, and about pregnancy. The information may or may not have been accurate, but there was certainly more information available through sex-ed than ever before. And yet, despite that, teem sex, teen pregnancies, STDs etc. all grew by huge percentages.

What happened?

Simple: this idea that kids are supposed to have "accurate information" about sex as teens backfired badly. Whereas before, they were simply told "don't do it" they are now hearing "don't do it, but if you do..." And the only part they are hearing is "but if you do..."

So, how do we fix it?

Well first, we stop telling the kids "if you do..." There is no "if you do..." If you do, then you have messed up badly, and you will suffer the consequences of your actions. Go back to the unambiguous message of "don't do it".

Second, you scrap the whole idea that junior high school and high school are supposed to be there to teach kids about accurate/safe sex. They are not. They are there to teach kids how to read, write, and do math and understand history so that they can become productive memebers of society. (Note that I did not say "REproductive members of society".) Sex education is not for the school system. You want to know about human biology, take a bio class.

Third, you get the media to start becoming a part of the solution, not the problem. Ad campaigns. Enforcement of the movie ratings system to keep kids below a certain age away from certain movies and DVDs. You start sending a consistent message regarding teen sex--- doing it isn't cool, it's going to get you in trouble, so don't do it. You get parents, teachers, and advertisers to all push that same message... and you leave off the stuff about "but if you do..." because THAT is the mixed message. Just don't do it.

That's all there is to it. It's a simple plan. It doesn't take much effort, but it does take changing the way people think about sex-ed in schools. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will. Making it "more accurate" isn't going to change that fact. We have 40+ years to prove that it hasn't worked.

You have a model of a society that successfully eliminates teen sex and teen preganancy and STDs to copy. Several in fact. The religious Muslim community in the USA has managed to handle these issues as well as the Orthodox Jewish community. You have a model that works... one where schools and parents and media are all working in tandem to give the same message. COPY that model, and you can solve, or at least alleviate, the problem.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Sorry, but where is this happening? This is not something I'd ever heard of. Do you have a link?

I don't know where or if this is happening, but here is a recommended lesson plan from Advocates for Youth I find disturbing:

How to Be a Super Activist and/or Ally*

Purpose: To identify ways to be a great activist and/or ally to GLBTQ people; to get into action

Materials: Newsprint and markers; handouts, 14 Ways Homophobia and Transphobia Affect Everyone and Ways to Be a GLBTQ Ally or Activist; Leader's Resource, Ways to Fight Homophobia and Transphobia

Time: 45 minutes

Planning Notes: Go over the handout, 14 Ways Homophobia and Transphobia Affect Everyone. Be prepared to lead a discussion on it. Be ready with brief examples that you can use if necessary.
Procedure:

* Ask the group how they think homophobia and transphobia affect GLBTQ youth—write the participants' responses on newsprint on the board. (Help them to think of answers such as: they hurt them; they can cause depression; they make GLBTQ youth think that they aren't as good as other people; they can lead to drug and alcohol use, etc.)
* Next have participants count off so they can form into groups of four or five. Say that they will have about 10 minutes to discuss whether homophobia and transphobia affect straight youth. If they think that the answer is yes, ask them to come up with five or six examples.
* Bring the groups back together and ask them to share some of the things they came up with. Record their answers on the newsprint.
* Distribute and discuss the handout 14 Ways Homophobia and Transphobia Affect Everyone.
* Ask participants to get back into their groups. Tell them that they are now going to spend about ten minutes discussing ways that GLBTQ youth and their straight allies can fight homophobia and transphobia. Distribute the handout Ways to Be a GLBTQ Ally or Activist. Ask participants to first spend about five minutes filling in the handout individually. Tell them you will let them know when the five minutes are up.
* Once the five minutes are up, ask the participants to talk in their groups about ways they identified to fight homophobia and transphobia. Tell participants that they can add to their original list if someone in their group has a good idea they hadn't already thought of.
* Ask everyone to reassemble. Ask for volunteers to share ways in which they think they can act as an ally of GLBTQ youth. Write the ideas on a sheet of newsprint. Add checkmarks beside similar or second suggestions that have already been made. Ask participants to add to their own handout any suggestions that they hear for the first time that seem especially good to them. Include the suggestions from the Leader's Resource, Ways to Fight Homophobia and Transphobia, if no one suggests them. Ask participants to add asterisks (stars) on their handouts by any action(s) they are willing to take in the future. Ask them to commit to taking those actions consistently (whenever the need arises) and to add their signatures to their handouts if they haven't already done so.
* Finish up with the Discussion Questions below.

Discussion Questions:

1. Did you learn anything today that surprised you?
2. Were you surprised about ways in which homophobia affects your life? The lives of your friends and family?
3. In view of what you know now, will you take action to oppose homophobia and transphobia when you witness them?

* Adapted and reprinted with permission of Gay-Straight Alliance Network of San Francisco, California.

This is the kind of nonsense that advocates of "comprehensive sex education" want in our schools if it isn't there already, along with exercises in having kids create ads for contraceptives, discussing personal family matters, how to get prescription EC online from a virtual doctor, and incredibly, a "heterosexual questionnaire."

Heterosexual Questionnaire*

Please answer the following questions as honestly as possible.

Heterosexual Questionnaire*

Please answer the following questions as honestly as possible.

1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality?
2. When and how did you first decide you were heterosexual?
3. Is it possible that your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?
4. Is it possible that your heterosexuality stems from a fear of others of the same sex?
5. If you have never slept with a member of your own sex, is it possible that you might be gay if you tried it?
6. If heterosexuality is normal, why are so many mental patients heterosexual?
7. Why do you heterosexual people try to seduce others into your lifestyle?
8. Why do you flaunt your heterosexuality? Can't you just be who you are and keep it quiet?
9. The great majority of child molesters are heterosexual. Do you consider it safe to expose your children to heterosexual teachers?
10. With all the societal support that marriage receives, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexual people?
11. Why are heterosexual people so promiscuous?
12. Would you want your children to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they would face, such as heartbreak, disease, and divorce?

You have GOT to be kidding me, right? Why are so many mental patients heterosexual? You might be gay of you tried it? Would you want your children to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they would face, such as heartbreak, disease, and divorce? Why on earth should anyone confront our children with crap like this?

[N0help4u]

I was a grade school teacher. I have two children who attended school. I was in the local PTA and even served as an officer. I helped out at many fund-raising events. In short, I was part of many converstions with other parents.

Unfortunately, too many of them stretch the truth to fit into their own religious agenda. If this is the report from public schools: "School officials said they were not seeking to promote a [homosexual] agenda, beyond tolerance and a kind of cultural literacy," there are parents who will decide that public school students are being given a green light to "choose homosexuality." And that's not the case at all.

Also you do hear of many teachers that put their own views on a subject that isn't necessarily the curriculum. Look at all the teachers even having sex with the students and so forth.

When I was in 9th (1970) grade I had a teacher that was always telling us to go on down to the peace rally and smoke weed and we had a 'all about get high class' with him (short of actually doing it).

So I am sure many of the stories are true but not necessarily endorsed by the school board but how do you weed it all out??

[Wondergirl]

Also you do hear of many teachers that put their own views on a subject that isn't necessarily the curriculum. Look at all the teachers even having sex with the students and so forth.

When I was in 9th (1970) grade I had a teacher that was always telling us to go on down to the peace rally and smoke weed and we had a 'all about get high class' with him (short of actually doing it).

So I am sure many of the stories are true but not necessarily endorsed by the school board but how do you weed it all out???

The majority of teachers are moral and trustworthy. Tell me how many are having sex with their students and encouraging them to break the law. I'm positive the numbers are minuscule.

You weed it all out by being involved in your child's school and knowing what goes on--and bringing abuses to light.

One of my sons had a teacher who didn't give a hoot about how he spelled words. Even the class mentioned to him that words were spelled wrong. He said, "Then look up the words and spell them right." Parents made things uncomfortable for him so that he is no longer a teacher at that school; he left education for the corporate world.

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

Bingo... Sadly, however, most parents don't. You say the kids should remain ignorant. I say they shouldn't.

That's not an issue for the schools to be solving. It ain't their problem. They should stay out of it. If parents want to handle the issue themselves, fine. If not, it's STILL not the schools' problem.

And I have yet to see a parent who hasn't said to their kid the very simple message of "don't do it". EVERY parent tells their kids that much. And that is the ONLY message that teens should be getting. It's this "but if you do..." message that they get from schools that muddles the issue. Schools should stay out of it.

Regarding the media; You, of the right wing persuasion, think the media CREATES popular culture. I, of the correct wing persuasion, understand that the media only REFLECTS popular culture.

Excon

Really? Since when? Are you truly saying that media doesn't create popular cutlure? Are you saying that if the winners of American Idol hadn't been on TV they would still be famous? That we would give a crap about Paris Hilton if she wasn't in the media? That Anna Nichole Smith's death would have caused more than a mild rustle in her home town if she wasn't plastered all over the media twice a week? The MEDIA made these people, and these people drive pop culture.

That's why something like "yellow journalism" is so bad... because the media does have the power to drive society. Whereas culture was once driven by the aristocracy of old... by the styles and eccentricities of kings, queens, and members of their courts... today it is driven by the media.

Yes, media reflects pop-culture. But they also determine who is popular and who to watch within pop-culture (who's hot and who's not), and in doing so, they drive pop-culture to follow those icons of their own creation. They only reflect what they created in the first place. Ego, they are part of the problem... but can become part of the solution.

This is basic sociology and basic mass media studies... subjects that are SUPPOSED to be taught in schools... not that sex-ed crap.

Elliot

[N0help4u]

got to spread rep ETW
... look at Britneys sister out of no where simply because she 'got pregnant'.
The media has devalued morals more than anything.
You can't even watch a 'family show' without hearing some degrading sexual joke or
*promoting* it somehow.

[jillianleab]

Oh... so we're worried about kids getting "accurate" information about sex, but not about them getting an education in reading, writing and arithmatic, history, geography, social sciences, etc. Why are "educators" so worried about making sure kids know about sex, but willing to sacrifice on REAL education? Please don't tell me how worried about education our schools are when 80% of kids can't find their own home state on a globe. EDUCATION is the LAST thing on school administrations' minds. Except when it comes to "GLBT issues", how to use a condom, and how to have "safe sex"... then suddenly we're worried about getting "accurate information" to kids.

Wait a sec - when did I say kids shouldn't get accurate or thorough education in other subjects?? :confused: I don't think educators are the ones who want to scrimp on the education we are giving our kids - it's the people handing out the checks. Have you ever worked for a public school system, or known someone who does? There is a shortage of good teachers out there because the pay is lousy and the work is hard, but the GOOD teachers actually CARE and protest when funding is cut and they have to scale back on lesson plans. And I find it very disturbing you don't think sex ed is a worthwhile subject to provide accurate information for, and you don't consider it a "real" subject. Do you advocate sexual ignorance?

So tell me, Jillian, why were there so many fewer teen pregnancies and cases of teen sex during the 50s and prior... before sex-ed became a hot topic? If kids were avoiding pregnancy and not having sex BEFORE sex-ed, but are having MORE sex and getting pregnant more often AFTER sex-ed started, what does that tell you about sex ed?

Culture. Globalization. The "free love" era. Parents who both have to work full time and end up leaving their 13-year old unsupervised. The media. BAD sex ed.

Oh, and in the 50s and prior, if you got knocked up you got sent to a home for unwed mothers and your baby was raised as your sibling. Yes, let's go back to THAT.

[QUTOE]So, how do we fix it?

Well first, we stop telling the kids "if you do..." There is no "if you do..." If you do, then you have messed up badly, and you will suffer the consequences of your actions. Go back to the unambiguous message of "don't do it".

Second, you scrap the whole idea that junior high school and high school are supposed to be there to teach kids about accurate/safe sex. They are not. They are there to teach kids how to read, write, and do math and understand history so that they can become productive memebers of society. (Note that I did not say "REproductive members of society".) Sex education is not for the school system. You want to know about human biology, take a bio class.[/QUOTE]

Ok, let's pretend there's no sex ed in schools. All we do is scream "DON'T DO IT!!!!" YOU think that will make kids not do it. YOU think there will be a drop in teen pregnancy and teen sex. I think there will be an increase in teen pregnancy and stds because teens are STILL going to do it and now they won't have any clue at how to prevent it. I think there will be an increase in incorrect, dangerous information spread out there. Like it or not, sex is a part of life, and in order to be a productive member of society, you have to know about it and know how to make smart choices about it. What good does it do to to be a math whiz if you think you can't get pregnant while breastfeeding (that's how my grandmother got pregnant with my aunt - in the 50s)

Third, you get the media to start becoming a part of the solution, not the problem. Ad campaigns. Enforcement of the movie ratings system to keep kids below a certain age away from certain movies and DVDs. You start sending a consistent message regarding teen sex--- doing it isn't cool, it's going to get you in trouble, so don't do it. You get parents, teachers, and advertisers to all push that same message... and you leave off the stuff about "but if you do..." because THAT is the mixed message. Just don't do it.

You keep saying this to me, and I keep telling you I agree, the media messages are part of the problem. But here's what you seem to be forgetting - the shows and movies that have sexual situations in them are for ADULTS, not kids. Grey's Anatomy isn't a show for 14 year olds. 40-year-old Virgin was rate "R", it was made for adults. Are you saying the gubment should step in and tell movie makers they can't make these movies because we have to protect our precious little snowflakes from any and all images of sex? Or that they can't advertise until after a certain time because, again, our precious little snowflakes might catch a glimpse of a kiss? Grey's Anatomy is on a 9pm - shouldn't most kids be in bed by then? Shouldn't it be up to the parents to make sure their kids aren't watching something like that? Or if they are, that's it's not appropriate behavior for him/her? Where's the personal responsibility?

And what happens when you don't tell teens about condoms and the pill? Ok, you've managed to keep them from doing it when they're teens, but now, at 23, they decide to do it. Condom? What's that? The pill? What pill? Oops - pregnant! Now make them married - is it any better if they aren't ready for a child at that point? Should people only get married when they are financially and emotionally ready for a child? Because if you don't teach them about contraceptives at SOME POINT we're going to have a bunch of idiot pregnant adults running around.

You have a model of a society that successfully eliminates teen sex and teen preganancy and STDs to copy. Several in fact. The religious Muslim community in the USA has managed to handle these issues as well as the Orthodox Jewish community. You have a model that works... one where schools and parents and media are all working in tandem to give the same message. COPY that model, and you can solve, or at least alleviate, the problem.

Elliot

And in those communities you have a strong religious backing. You also have a limited number or teens. You also have a strong community backing. You also have a low rate of teen PREGNANCY - that doesn't mean some aren't having sex. I had sex as a teen - I never got pregnant. Without knowing that, my parents and school could say what they did with me worked. I know better, but they don't.

[jillianleab]

This is the kind of nonsense that advocates of "comprehensive sex education" want in our schools if it isn't there already, along with exercises in having kids create ads for contraceptives, discussing personal family matters, how to get prescription EC online from a virtual doctor, and incredibly, a "heterosexual questionnaire."

It's comprehensive speech. It's not just teaching about sex, it's teaching about communities and relationships and tolerance and different lifestlyes. It's getting kids comfortable talking about sex so they won't treat it like it's a secret, like it's taboo. So that maybe, if they are comfortable saying "birth control" they can go to their parent and ask for it. So that, later in life, when they DO have sex, they can pick the right contraceptive to use.

And the hetreosexual questionnaire? I swear to god, you have a knack for taking things out of context!

THIS: is the point of the hetersexual questionnaire:

Heterosexual Questionnaire*
Purpose: To give straight people an opportunity to experience the types of questions that are often asked of gay, lesbian, and/or bisexual people

Time: 40 minutes

Materials: Handout Heterosexual Questionnaire

Procedure:
Explain to the group that, when gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth are beginning to 'come out,' they are often asked questions that are nearly impossible to answer. In order to help participants understand the heterosexist bias** in our culture, you will ask them to grapple with these same questions in regard to heterosexuality.
Say that you will give them each a handout. They will break up into groups of four or five and try to come up with answers. Say that you want them to try to answer each question as well as to react to the questions as a whole. Irrespective of each participant's sexual orientation, everyone should attempt to answer as though he/she is heterosexual.
After about 10 minutes, ask everyone to reassemble in the large group. Ask the participants the Discussion Questions below.

You're a better person than that. A better person than someone who will skew something and take it out of context to fit his agenda, aren't you? I hope so, but as evidenced, you might not be. I'm disappointed, I really, really am. That was a low blow and it was pathetic.

[Fr_Chuck]

Schools should not cross the line into religious values. Once they do they are teaching their own religion. The ideaqs and values of sex and of acceptance of other life styles beyond conventional ones is not the schools place,

That is why of course I would never send my child to a public school.

[excon]

So tell me, Jillian, why were there so many fewer teen pregnancies and cases of teen sex during the 50s and prior... before sex-ed became a hot topic?

Hello again, El:

Uhhhh, Dude! They invented a thing called the birth control pill. It came out in the 60's. I actually think THAT was the turning point, not sex ed.

I coulld be wrong... but I'm not.

excon

[Wondergirl]

Schools should not cross the line into religious values.

In Illinois there's a huge effort being put into a program called the "Character Counts! Coalition" that includes public schools. There are Six Pillars of Character: trustworthiness, respect, responsibility, fairness, caring, citizenship. Here's the main site:

http://charactercounts.org/pdf/about/QuickLook-1005.pdf

Teaching morals and values is teaching religion? CC says no.

[speechlesstx]

It's comprehensive speech. It's not just teaching about sex, it's teaching about communities and relationships and tolerance and different lifestlyes. It's getting kids comfortable talking about sex so they won't treat it like it's a secret, like it's taboo. So that maybe, if they are comfortable saying "birth control" they can go to their parent and ask for it. So that, later in life, when they DO have sex, they can pick the right contraceptive to use.

Jillian, what business do our schools have teaching this kind of "comprehensive" sex ed? FYI, I have never said we can't teach sex ed in schools, but this kind of crap is as offensive to me as abstinence only education is to Planned Parenthood. Is there no happy medium? Seriously, I don't object to basic, unbiased sex ed but I don't want ANY public school teaching my kids about relationships, tolerance, different lifestyles and birth control - it's none of their $#$%! Business. And it's %$#$#@ sure not there place to give kids info on obtaining prescription EC online from virtual doctors. If you can't see the ethical concerns there I don't know what else to say.

And the hetreosexual questionnaire? I swear to god, you have a knack for taking things out of context!

Taking something out of context is when "a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning." I did no such thing, I presented it word for word directly from the source and furnished the link.And if you were familiar with me at all you would know I abhor "contextomy" and expend a great deal of effort putting things back into context.

THIS: is the point of the hetersexual questionnaire:

Yeah, I get the point. What is the point of helping our children "understand the heterosexist bias in our culture?" Hmmm?

You're a better person than that. A better person than someone who will skew something and take it out of context to fit his agenda, aren't you? I hope so, but as evidenced, you might not be. I'm disappointed, I really, really am. That was a low blow and it was pathetic.

Jillian, talk about disappointing, I present word for word lesson plans from the source and you consider it a pathetic, low blow, intentional misrepresentation. Funny how it's noble to point out the errors in abstinence curriculum but "pathetic" to post verbatim lesson plans that undermine parental rights. What has apparently escaped you is I'm willing to compromise. I don't call for your kids to be indoctrinated with a faith based, error filled abstinence curriculum - don't call for mine to be indoctrinated with this other crap.

[Wondergirl]

excon agrees: Boy, did THEY screw up! They forgot VIRGINITY!

Boys are trustworthy when they are with girls = virginity
Boys respect girls' purity = virginity
Boys show girls that they are responsible when they understand what "no" means = virginity
Boys are fair to girls when they don't get them drunk and in a compromising position = virginity
Boys care about girls when they only hold hands and kiss with closed lips = virginity
Boys are good citizens when they keep their hands above deck = virginity

Hmmmm.

[speechlesstx]

The current curriculum is BROKEN, but a curriculum full of lies and scare tactics is not the answer. This will make speechless have a heart attack ()...

And why is that Jillian? What makes you think I would want "a curriculum full of lies and scare tactics?" I don't recall having endorsed this abstinence only education. It seems to me you're not only reading between lines that aren't even there, you're misrepresenting me in the process.

but I agree with PP about having comprehensive sex ed from the beginning of school. I think if we start young we can prevent kids from having sex to early.

Nonsense, let kids be kids again.

[jillianleab]

Jillian, what business do our schools have teaching this kind of "comprehensive" sex ed? FYI, I have never said we can't teach sex ed in schools, but this kind of crap is as offensive to me as abstinence only education is to Planned Parenthood. Is there no happy medium? Seriously, I don't object to basic, unbiased sex ed but I don't want ANY public school teaching my kids about relationships, tolerance, different lifestyles and birth control - it's none of their $#$%! Business. And it's %$#$#@ sure not there place to give kids info on obtaining prescription EC online from virtual doctors. If you can't see the ethical concerns there I don't know what else to say.

Then opt your kids out. But ask yourself - why is it so wrong to teach our kids about how there are different people in this world, and that they all deserve respect? I never said I agree with everything on their agenda, but I certainly agree with teaching people of ALL ages that EVERYONE deserves the same level of respect.

Taking something out of context is when "a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning." I did no such thing, I presented it word for word directly from the source and furnished the link.And if you were familiar with me at all you would know I abhor "contextomy" and expend a great deal of effort putting things back into context.

And you don't think you've done this? You don't think by posting the list of questions, without clarifying WHY those questions are given to the kids is taking the list out of context? I read the list, and I said to myself, "Why are they encouraging kids to consider they might be gay? Something isn't right here." and as I investigated further, I found those questions are there to let the kids understand the ridiculous questions that are asked of gay kids everyday. To give them perspective on it, not to have them ask themselves if they are gay. Out of context indeed. You did provide the link - the link to the questions, not to the lesson plan. It was devious and taking it out of context. Disagree with me if you want, but you did this in another thread with info from PP too.

Yeah, I get the point. What is the point of helping our children "understand the heterosexist bias in our culture?" Hmmm?

So we can put a stop to intolerance, discrimination and murder based on sexual orientation. Charles Howard: Gay Hate Crime Victim

Jillian, talk about disappointing, I present word for word lesson plans from the source and you consider it a pathetic, low blow, intentional misrepresentation. Funny how it's noble to point out the errors in abstinence curriculum but "pathetic" to post verbatim lesson plans that undermine parental rights. What has apparently escaped you is I'm willing to compromise. I don't call for your kids to be indoctrinated with a faith based, error filled abstinence curriculum - don't call for mine to be indoctrinated with this other crap.

Yes, it is noble to point out medical inaccuracies in the abstinence only curriculum. Your daughter has AIDS, do you want the kids across the street to be taught they can "catch it" from her if she sweats on them? If they comfort her when she cries? It is quite pathetic to post verbatum the lesson plan from the comprehensive lesson plan when you've taken it out of context. If by my "indoctrination" you mean my idea that all people should be treated equally and with respect no matter what their sexual orientation is, then yes, I DO think your kids should be indoctrinated with that. Respect and tolerance helps society function. Beyond that, I've NEVER said someone shouldn't have the right to opt their kids out of the program. Want your kids to hate gays, or be in denial they exist? Opt them out and teach them whatever you want.

And why is that Jillian? What makes you think I would want "a curriculum full of lies and scare tactics?" I don't recall having endorsed this abstinence only education. It seems to me you're not only reading between lines that aren't even there, you're misrepresenting me in the process.

Read my post again. I didn't say you want the abstinence only program. I said it would give you a heart attack that I advocate the comprehensive program (and it was a joke, btw). So no, it is you who is reading between the lines that aren't even there and misrepresenting me in the process. Teaching kids that there are many different kinds of people in this world in no way prevents them from being kids. Would it make you feel better if we called it "life education" instead of "sex education"?

[ETWolverine]

Jillian,

Ok, let's pretend there's no sex ed in schools. All we do is scream "DON'T DO IT!!!!" YOU think that will make kids not do it. YOU think there will be a drop in teen pregnancy and teen sex. I think there will be an increase in teen pregnancy and stds because teens are STILL going to do it and now they won't have any clue at how to prevent it.

History, as I have said before, would seem to indicate otherwise. There was a lot less teen sex, teen pregnancy and STD trouble before sex ed was put in place. How do you account for that? My point is that the model I ascribe to DID work on the large scale for the general population prior to the introduction of sex ed.

Elliot

[Wondergirl]

There was a lot less teen sex, teen pregnancy and STD trouble before sex ed was put in place

I don't know how old you are, Eliot. I was a hormonally-challenged teen during the late '50s and early '60s. I attended public grade and high schools in both large towns and rural areas of NC and NY. No one had ever heard of sex ed back then. There was none. At home, few parents said "Don't do it." Parents didn't talk to their kids about sex and kids didn't ask questions. Knowledge about sex came from peers, older sibs, and from books read in dark corners of the library (altho most of the really helpful ones were locked up).

Why then didn't a lot of us "do it"? Fear, simply because of fear--mostly fear that we would go to hell. Hell would come after I died. Pregnancy was a given if I "did it". Hell on earth would be after several months with Aunt Dorothy who lived in the Idaho wilderness and who would arrange to have the baby that I would never see be given to some family whom I would never meet or know.

[speechlesstx]

Then opt your kids out. But ask yourself - why is it so wrong to teach our kids about how there are different people in this world, and that they all deserve respect? I never said I agree with everything on their agenda, but I certainly agree with teaching people of ALL ages that EVERYONE deserves the same level of respect.

It's the parent's job, it is not the school's place to contradict or undermine parental values whether you agree with those values or not. The school is not the parent.

And you don't think you've done this? You don't think by posting the list of questions, without clarifying WHY those questions are given to the kids is taking the list out of context?

Absolutely not. It is impossible to take something "out of context" when the entire context was presented - along with links to the source for further investigation. If you want to know the why's behind it check out the link I furnished, my point is I find the questionnaire itself offensive and inappropriate for public schools and I'm sure others would agree.

I read the list, and I said to myself, "Why are they encouraging kids to consider they might be gay? Something isn't right here." and as I investigated further, I found those questions are there to let the kids understand the ridiculous questions that are asked of gay kids everyday. To give them perspective on it, not to have them ask themselves if they are gay.

There you go, that's why I cite my sources. If only it were about giving kids perspective but it isn't. I also pointed out and quoted the lesson plan to teach kids how to be "a great activist and/or ally to GLBTQ people" that finishes with this:

Ask participants to add asterisks (stars) on their handouts by any action(s) they are willing to take in the future. Ask them to commit to taking those actions consistently (whenever the need arises) and to add their signatures to their handouts if they haven't already done so.

I guess you missed the part where they are recruiting the kids to go beyond perspective and into the realm of activism. And by the way, here's the teacher's resource:

Ways to Fight Homophobia and Transphobia

Here are just a few of the many ways that young people can fight homophobia and transphobia. If participants have a hard time coming up with actions they can take, suggest some of these.

1. Be a friend to GLBTQ youth or to other GLBTQ youth.
2. When you hear homophobic or transphobic comments, calmly assert your belief in everyone's right to be treated with dignity and respect.
3. Join the gay/straight alliance in your school.
4. Start a gay/straight alliance, if one doesn't already exist in your school.
5. Ask to speak with adults in charge (of the school, agency, community of faith, etc.) about the importance of a 'zero tolerance' policy for homophobic and transphobic comments and actions.
6. Write a letter to the editor of your hometown and/or school newspaper.
7. Ask for a panel discussion on GLBTQ issues. Ask that GLBTQ youth participate on the panel.
8. Ask for a relaxed dress code that honors each person's individuality and unique gender expression.
9. Ask that all teens be able to bring a date of their own choosing (same-sex or opposite sex) to the prom, dances, parties, etc.
10. Create and distribute a list of community resources for GLBTQ youth.

I stand on my first previous, in context, postings. Public schools are not places to mold little GLBTQ activists.

Out of context indeed. You did provide the link - the link to the questions, not to the lesson plan. It was devious and taking it out of context. Disagree with me if you want, but you did this in another thread with info from PP too.

Devious my arse, I've provided more than sufficient context, links, and supporting evidence to back my claims in both posts. You can save that argument for someone deserving. Passionate yes, but certainly not devious.

Yes, it is noble to point out medical inaccuracies in the abstinence only curriculum. Your daughter has AIDS, do you want the kids across the street to be taught they can "catch it" from her if she sweats on them? If they comfort her when she cries?

Jillian dear, please point out one instance where I've supported that curriculum.

It is quite pathetic to post verbatum the lesson plan from the comprehensive lesson plan when you've taken it out of context. If by my "indoctrination" you mean my idea that all people should be treated equally and with respect no matter what their sexual orientation is, then yes, I DO think your kids should be indoctrinated with that.

I think you really need to get a grasp on what "out of context" means. This would be out of context:

Incredibly, Advocates for Youth sex education curriculum teaches students that "the great majority of child molesters are heterosexual."

I presented what to me is an outrageous exercise - verbatim - suggested for students and asked why our children should be confronted with such nonsense. Nonsense is exactly what it is, a tactic the left loves to use to not only further their agenda but make conservatives look like neanderthals, I've faced it on pages like this a thousand times.

I do think kids should be taught to respect all people, but that indoctrination is no more welcome in my home than mine is in yours. Find a truly unbiased curriculum that we can compromise on and we won't need to have this argument.

Respect and tolerance helps society function. Beyond that, I've NEVER said someone shouldn't have the right to opt their kids out of the program. Want your kids to hate gays, or be in denial they exist? Opt them out and teach them whatever you want.

In addition to having never supported the abstinence curriculum, I've never said anyone shouldn't be able to opt out of it either. I don't want the schools to teach either version.

Read my post again. I didn't say you want the abstinence only program. I said it would give you a heart attack that I advocate the comprehensive program (and it was a joke, btw). So no, it is you who is reading between the lines that aren't even there and misrepresenting me in the process. Teaching kids that there are many different kinds of people in this world in no way prevents them from being kids. Would it make you feel better if we called it "life education" instead of "sex education"?

Jillian, I've been around the block a time or two, very little surprises me - especially the fact that you advocate comprehensive sex ed - seeing as how you'd already told me you do. Therefore, either way your "heart attack" comment was unnecessary. And no, I wouldn't feel better calling it "life education." Disguising the lessons I revealed as "life education" would be devious. Teach them how to read, write, add, etc. and expect respect for others - leave the values education to the parents.