[davenpos]

I have decided to post to a forum in the hope of getting some guidance with my well system.
I have a new well and system (installed April of 2005) which consists of the following:
Well with above ground Myers 220v pump
Pressure tank set to 40 psi
200 or 300 gal aeration tank (5'6" high)
Myers secondary above ground pump, 115v (which I have seen called a helper pump as it repressurizes the water going to the house after it leaves the aeration tank)
Bladder tank set to 32 psi
GE whole house sediment filter using 5-15 micron filter (not string type but the type that is white felt like solid material (installed myself)).

This is the order of the components as they would be if you could stand at my well and look at them.

I currently have good pressure, and the filter does trap a lot of brown material. After 3 months, the filter was totally full of brown material, and actully weighed several times its installation weight. This may be because it was a new well. I have read that it may take a while for a well to settle out, and we have had our share of rain this year (my new grass is HAPPY) I did try a carbon filter from Ace Hdwe next, and it lasted one month before dragging my pressure down to an unacceptable level for showering/laundry etc. so I went back to the original white material filter.

I have tested my water, and the result is very hard (15 grains), high PH (8.5 ppm), high alkalinity(240ppm), low or no iron of any of the three types, no copper, no nitrates/nitrites. The water tastes good, and in my opinion, is not very sufur/sulfer infused. I have stuck my face down into the open aeration tank, and only get a very slight smell. My neighbors have nothing on their well and are impressed that the water is as good as it is in the smell category. I do see red iron ground seepage at the front of my property in the drainage ditches though, which I find to be curious. I grew up in Pensacola, and this type of seepage is something I saw many times while growing up. It may only be iron bacteria though.
I do have tannins in the water. It is a pale yellow at all times. I think this probably explains the brown material in the filter. I live in Nassau County Florida, 11 miles from a river (St Marys). We have sugar sand topography and a fairly high water table. I drew a sample at the spigot just after the well, and let it sit for one week, and after the week passed the water was just as clear as when I drew it, but the yellow color persisted. Did not intensify, just stayed the same.


OK. Now that we have a picture, let me tell you what I want to do.
I want to install a water softener inside the house (laundry room, which is also the main water entry with a whole house shut off at the washer hookup area). Yes, I plan to do it myself. I have many years experience with plumbing of various types; in this case we are talking PEX with copper bands at the joints (manufactured home).
The questions I hope to answer or get guidance on are these:

Can I remove the aeration tank/secondary pump/bladder tank from the system? My thinking is that the softener is going to cancel the need for these items, and it would save pressure and electricity to remove them.

Should I stick with an inside installation or can I install outside next to the well (I realize I would have to enclose)? An outside installation would be MUCH easier and less expensive, as I am going to have to spend a few bucks to purchase all the PEX elbows and piping I need to set this softener in the utility room area,
I am thinking that an inside install will significantly lengthen the water softeners life. I will have to drain into the septic system though, which I have read is OK according to University of Wisconsin, or bad according to folks who pump septic tanks. What's the story there? Now I know folks have had softeners for years. Where do they send that recharge waste? Is it really safe for a septic system? Should I just go for a dry well for the discharge?

Any advice, experiences, guidance is greatly appreciated.

[labman]

I saw your post last night and left it for our resident top expert plumber, who lives in Florida. Tom, we need you.

For those of us in the north, outside would never work. Since you already have stuff outside, maybe the softener too. I would put the softener just after the filter to protect it from the yuck in the water. Shouldn't be too much to plumb it in where ever. Any reason to go with the Plex? It would take a couple of adapters to go to PVC, but it is cheap and easy to work with. What ever you use, use ball valves. They cost about the same, and are easier to use and leak less. You never have to fool with packing nuts or even repack one. Any time you can see the valve handle, you can tell if it is open or closed.

[davenpos]

Thanks for responding, Labman. I hope Tom replies, as I would like to get his Fla. Based feedback. Yes, whether I do an inside or outside install, the filter will be in front of the softener. After seeing what accumulates in the filter, I will be leaving the filter in place.
As for the choice of piping, I have Pex in the entire home, so at first I thought I must use Pex if I do an inside install (outside of house is PVC, 3/4"), but I had a reversal of thought on that two nights ago while looking at my plan, and prices on the flair-it connections I had planned to use on the inside installation. It would have cost over $80.00 to use Flair-it in my plan, so I revised the plan to use a Flair-it connection only to branch off of the main inlet loop, and then go to 3/4" PVC or CPVC to the softener, thus saving mucho $. I decided that I did not want to use the standard Pex copper ring connection method that was used in the home. Flair-it is easier to install and also as reliable as a properly crimped copper ring connection. That is why I decided on PEX for INSIDE installation. If I were to install at the well, that is a different story... I have 3/4" drinking water rated PVC right up to the house, so that would be my choice. That would be WAY cheap for me because I have plenty of 3/4" pipe on hand, and most of the fittings. I would need to purchase very little.
Oh yes, I am also very well acquainted with ball valves, and have about 5 on the aeration system that is in place. If I dismantle as I am thinking I would like to do, I could re-use them in the modification.

My biggest concerns in placing the softener at the well are still:

1. Removal of the aeration tank and secondary pump/bladder tank. I can almost see leaving the second pump/bladder, but nothing I have read states that this would be needed. It would have to be after the softener, and that just does not make sense to me, period. I have seen NO softener systems advocating the use of a secondary pump/bladder.

Where to send the recharge material. I think this is a concern whether inside or outside. I am a plant person. I just planted two hybrid Hibiscus 5-7 feet in front of the well area. Yep, I can move them, but I REALLY want to hear how folks who have systems installed at the well are dealing with recharge fluids. If I use salt, then the discharge from recharging will eventually poison the soil, plus I am sure it is not legal in most places to just put this stuff into the soil. I am researching to see if I can use a dry well. If not, I really want to know if anyone out there advocates putting the discharge into a septic system. I have see posts that are pro, and posts that are con. If I use potassium instead of salt, will I eventually have the same issue? Is potassium as effective as salt at softening water? It is much better for discharge into the ground, especially in the topography we have here, which is loose sand that leaches out pretty rapidly.
Many questions...
I pretty much have the piping figured out. I just want to get answers to the current system modification questions, and the discharge questions.

[speedball1]

Hi Dave, If your sulfur content isn't all that much I'm wondering why you have a aeration system installed at all. If it's just iron oxide,(rust) a filter should do nicely. In the Tampa Bay area water softeners, pumps, and sprinkler systems are separate trades and while we may install some of them them we don't service or repair them. But I can tell you this. Chapter 13, Section 1308.8 (Connections) of the Standard Plumbing Code states, "No direct connection of stean exhaust, blowoff, or drip pipe, (this includes sump pumps, storm water run off, AC condensate, water softener discharge) shall be made to the building drainage system."
I guess that means a dry well to accept the softener discharge.
If you decide to remove the aeration tank I can see no advantage to keeping the booster pump. However, this confuses me, "well with above ground Myers 220v pump
pressure tank set to 40 psi
200 or 300 gal aeration tank (5'6" high)
Myers secondary above ground pump, 115v (which I have seen called a helper pump as it repressurizes the water going to the house after it leaves the aeration tank)
Bladder tank set to 32 psi"
Most primary aeration pumps pump directly into the aeration tank and are controlled by a float switch in the tank. A pressure tank's not needed
At this point since there's no pressure built up to maintain.
However if you bypass the booster pump you'll need that pressure tank for maintaining the house pressure. Good luck, Tom

[newbiehomeowner]

Quick note about the PEX.. there is a crimping tool for each size of the copper bands to connect the elbows , they are around 99 bucks apiece per size. Lowe's has some elbows and Pex to PVC adapters that do not require the metal bands and save a lot of money on the crimping tool if you don't already own them.
The slab mine is on was bypassed overhead using PEX so I found this out only recently.
Good luck
Neil

[davenpos]

Thanks for your replies, Speedball1 and Newbiehomeowner. Sorry for my late reply, but I have been getting the softener installed, and I was out of town for a day or two.
I too wonder why the aearation tank was installed. After living here for several months, the water problem appears to be more one of iron and tannins than sulfer. The water smells metallic. Maybe that is what sulfer hydroxide gas smells like, I don't know.
I guess I will be checking prices for digging a hole on my property (lots of trees and roots here), and over the Thanksgiving holiday I will install the dry well. I think that will be a fairly easy job once I go through the floor. I will simply exit in the area where the washer drain exits. There are several knock-out type holes partially drilled in the area behind the wall access panel. Of course, I will be careful because I know that the main inlet and outlet lie just below those knock-outs. I have to keep it away from well and septic, in case I sell because this will come to bear at that point. Maybe I better research that code too...
I am looking forward to having better water, and knowing that it is just a week or two away keeps me motivated.

Imagine though, what a GREAT rain water catch and deliver system I am going to be able to make from that aeration tank/secondary pump! I figure, set the gutters to drain into the aeration tank, then use the pump to deliver. I can use PVC to set up some watering points throughout the yard. Got to work on the plan for that one though.

Thanks again for the valuable reference to plumbing codes.
SD

[speedball1]

Maybe that is what sulfer hydroxide gas smells like, I don't know.

For your information, sulpher water smells exactly like rotten eggs.

"Imagine though, what a GREAT rain water catch and deliver system I am going to be able to make from that aeration tank/secondary pump! I figure, set the gutters to drain into the aeration tank, then use the pump to deliver. I can use PVC to set up some watering points throughout the yard. Got to work on the plan for that one though."

I like that idea, Let me know if we can help. Cheers, Tom