[gallivant_fellow]

It's no surprise that the Central Intelligence Agency breaks the law. But how much they do it is a real shocker. In 1996, the House of Representatives' Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence released a huge report entitled "IC21." Hidden among hundreds of pages of this report lies one, shocking paragraph:

The CS [clandestine service] is the only part of the IC [intelligence community], indeed of the government, where hundreds of employees on a daily basis are directed to break extremely serious laws in countries around the world in the face of frequently sophisticated efforts by foreign governments to catch them. A safe estimate is that several hundred times every day (easily 100,000 a year) DO [Directorate of Operations] officers engage in highly illegal activities (according to foreign law) that not only risk political embarrassment to the US but also endanger the freedom if not lives of the participating foreign nationals and, more than occasionally, of the clandestine officer himself.

CIA expert, John Kelly, also notes that "The CIA's crimes include terrorism, assassination, torture, and systematic violations of human rights."

Question:
Do you think that the CIA's crime doesn't pay, or do you like how our country makes trouble for the benefit of the US?

[tomder55]

Of course the CIA breaks laws of countries they are conducting espionage and intel .gathering in. Why would that be news ?

[ETWolverine]

Exactly how do you expect spies to gather information about foreign, often hostile governments?

And exactly what do you think other countries' intelligence agencies are doing to collect information about us? Think they are obeying our laws while trying to obtain our military and national security secrets?

What, exactly, do you think spies are supposed to be doing?

Elliot

[excon]

Do you think that the CIA's crime doesn't pay, or do you like how our country makes trouble for the benefit of the US?

Hello gallivant:

Well, it depends...

IF, in the commission of their crimes, they get intel that works to our nations benefit (like missiles in Cuba), then I'd say it's worth it. However, if in the process of committing their crimes, they come back with BS (like "slam dunk"), then I don't think their crimes benefited the US at all. And no, that doesn't please me.

excon

[tomder55]

Gallivant

If you are looking for a real interesting read about the CIA then try "Sabotage: America's Enemies Within the CIA." by Rowan Scarborough .

I do not mind the CIA doing America's work in foreign nations . I object strongly when they interfere in domestic politics.

My own position on the agency is that it should be disbanded as a separate entity and intelligence operations should be returned to the military .

[kindj]

By way of reply, let me put roughly the same scenario in different context:

Should narcotics officers be allowed to possess, buy, and/or sell narcotics in their efforts to apprehend drug dealers? Technically, such things are crimes.

However, if by their actions they keep my boys from being offered drugs, then I'm all for it.

Likewise, if by their efforts the CIA keeps bad guys out of my yard, then I'm all for it.

Espionage is a dirty business, no argument there. But as someone aptly pointed out, "criminal activity" is the very NATURE of espionage, as your whole goal is to secretly acquire what is not yours, mostly intelligence, but sometimes tangible items as well.

[tomder55]

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

[gallivant_fellow]

Of course the CIA breaks laws of countries they are conducting espionage and intel .gathering in. Why would that be news ?

Of course they do crime like espionage, that's what they're for. They assassinate people too, again no surprise to anyone. BUT, this article isn't about them just spying and getting secrets, it's about SERIOUS CRIMES!! The serious crimes include TERRORISM, TORTURE, AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. Do you get what I mean now? Everyone knows the CIA does tons of illegal stuff, but the question is: Do you feel comfortable with the CIA's serious crimes, which they do in mass amounts, or do you think they should take it down a notch?

[gallivant_fellow]

Hello gallivant:

Well, it depends.....

IF, in the commission of their crimes, they get intel that works to our nations benefit (like missiles in Cuba), then I'd say it's worth it. However, if in the process of committing their crimes, they come back with BS (like "slam dunk"), then I don't think their crimes benefited the US at all. And no, that doesn't please me.

excon

Thanks excon. You were the only one who read and understood my post. It's not about the CIA spying in any way. It's about the "CIA committing crimes against humanity with de facto impunity and congressional sanctioning." -John Kelly

Why in hell would I write about a spy agency just spying?

[Dark_crow]

Ah! The fine art of espionage… tradecraft, the duplicities, treacheries, and violence…the mole… the use of torture, espionage training…a world that exists almost completely in shades of gray. Men and women who lay their lives on the line 24 hours a day.
We owe more to the men and women in the “Company” than we do to any Congressman. If anything we should get Congress out of the business of what the CIA is doing.

We need to move further away from Idealism and closer to Reality.

[speechlesstx]

Hmmm, let's look at this in context shall we? From the report mentioned, under the heading Finding #6: The Clandestine Service should be under the direct control of the DCI (the Director of Central Intelligence) and form a separate organization:

1) Most of the operations of the CS are, by all accounts, the most tricky, politically sensitive, and troublesome of those in the IC and frequently require the DCI's close personal attention. The CS is the only part of the IC, indeed of the government, where hundreds of employees on a daily basis are directed to break extremely serious laws in counties around the world in the face of frequently sophisticated efforts by foreign governments to catch them. A safe estimate is that several hundred times every day (easily 100,000 times a year) DO officers engage in highly illegal activities (according to foreign law) that not only risk political embarrassment to the US but also endanger the freedom if not lives of the participating foreign nationals and, more than occasionally, of the clandestine officer himself. In other words, a typical 28 year old, GS-11 case officer has numerous opportunities every week, by poor tradecraft or inattention, to embarrass his country and President and to get agents imprisoned or executed. Considering these facts and recent history, which has shown that the DCI, whether he wants to or not, is held accountable for overseeing the CS, the DCI must work closely with the Director of the CS and hold him fully and directly responsible to him.

Amazing what someone can do with part of a paragraph out of context. I found nothing about torture or "crimes against humanity with de facto impunity and congressional sanctioning." Of course the CIA breaks the law, of course they do things which could cause embarrassment or danger to other agents, of course they do things I'd rather not know about - it's an ugly world out there and I hope they're damn good at it.

[Dark_crow]

Thanks excon. You were the only one who read and understood my post. It's not about the CIA spying in any way. It's about the "CIA committing crimes against humanity with de facto impunity and congressional sanctioning." -John Kelly

Why in hell would I write about a spy agency just spying?

I suppose in some idealist way you personally can separate committing crimes from spying, but given the fact that spying in itself is inherently illegal it cannot be realistically accomplished.:)

[ETWolverine]

Of course they do crime like espionage, that's what they're for. They assassinate people too, again no surprise to anyone. BUT, this article isn't about them just spying and getting secrets, it's about SERIOUS CRIMES!!!!!! The serious crimes include TERRORISM, TORTURE, AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. Do you get what I mean now? Everyone knows the CIA does tons of illegal stuff, but the question is: Do you feel comfortable with the CIA's serious crimes, which they do in mass amounts, or do you think they should take it down a notch?

Again, I am going to pose the question to you that I posed above.

Exactly what methods would you like the CIA to use in order to obtain the information they need to protect the country? And exactly what methods do you think other international spy organizations from other countries are using to spy on us?

No, I don't feel the least bit uncomfortable with what the CIA does. I sleep quite well at night, and pray daily for those who do the job of protecting me and my family from those who would do them harm... by any means necessary. And if ever called upon to do the same (which I doubt, considering my lack of expertise in such matters), I would do the same things in a heartbeat.

I am quite comfortable with what the CIA does.

What I am uncomfortable with is the idea that it is public knowledge, thanks to, yet again, another leak to the press.

And what absolutely pisses me off is when people who have no knowledge about how human intelligence is gathered are willing to put my family, and everyone else's, at risk for the sake of their own personal bull$h!t, PC, kumbaya, naïve notions of how the world "ought" to be and how the people who put their lives on the line every day "ought" to be doing their jobs. People who have never had to actually face an enemy, never had to otain information necessary to stop a threat to national security, never had to actually do the job of protecting this country from threats foreign and domestic, but who think they know the most moral way to do those jobs. That totally pisses me off.

But I have no problems with the CIA. I give them my blessings to do whatever it is they have to do to keep me and my family safe, without being second-guessed by a bunch of armchair political hacks and couch potato generals reading one paragraph of a huge report and thinking they know all there is to know about what the CIA does. And anyone who doesn't give them the same level of confidence is a friggin' idiot and an ungreatful jerk. Instead of criticizing the CIA, why don't you just say "thank you" to them for making sure your butt hasn't been blown up today, and let them get on with their jobs.

Elliot

Edit: And while we're at it, why don't you just say thank you to the soldiers, marines, seamen and airmen of the US Armed Forces, the police, the FBI, the firemen, and anybody else in or out of uniform who is keeping you safe today or ever did so in the past. Try doing that instead of criticizing them for doing their jobs.

[Choux]

The world is a very dangerous place; Espionage is a really tough, but necessary business.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with the work done by the CIA.

[gallivant_fellow]

I, personally, don't care too much about their serious crimes. I do want to hear people's ethical standpoints on the issue though. I mean, The War On Terror. The CIA uses terrorism sneakier and more effectively than anyone on the planet. I'm just glad I'm friends with the bully.

[Dark_crow]

This is the sort of things that I find appalling: CIA Station Chief in Israel Unmasked


“Describing the CIA's participation in the Middle East peace process, Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet noted in the New York Times on October 27 that "[T]he agency's role has become widely publicized." In fact, the rather unconventional role of the CIA in mediating between Israeli and Palestinian security forces has entailed a significant erosion of the traditional secrecy surrounding CIA activities abroad. This erosion is reflected most starkly in the publication of the name of the CIA station chief in Tel Aviv, who has practically become a public figure.
The naming of intelligence officers under cover is something of a taboo, and potentially a criminal act. Richard Welch, the CIA station chief in Athens, was murdered in 1975 by a Greek revolutionary organization after a local newspaper published his name and address. This incident eventually led to passage of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 which generally makes it unlawful for authorized personnel to publicly identify a covert agent, and for others to expose such agents "as part of a pattern of activities" intended to impede U.S. intelligence.
So the recurring publication of the name of the CIA station chief in Tel Aviv has been viewed with alarm and dismay by U.S. intelligence officials. Senator Robert Kerrey, Vice Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, remarked on the PBS News Hour on October 26 that a certain publication had "identified the station chief in Israel. And it was a very unfortunate declaration."
CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield would not formally acknowledge that the name had been published. "As a matter of policy, we don't discuss individuals serving abroad." But he observed generally that disclosure of CIA personnel under cover is a serious security issue. "It puts them, their families, and the people they deal with at risk. That's the overriding concern."”

I have for some years been appalled that “Station Chiefs” are not more independent and less under control of Washington Bureaucrats. They usually have a number of moles operating whose life is uncertain.

Secrecy & Government Bulletin, Issue 75

[Choux]

Counteracting Jihadism(guerrilla warfare)s a complicated endeavour, to say the least! It can be called a war, but the traditional definition and conduct of war is not effective against Jihaism. :)

America is going to defend herself against these psychopaths, misfits, and drunk on religion Jihaists in the strongest possible way.

So, you say you are friends with the Jihadists... GOOD LUCK... we're going to kill a load of them in the coming decades.

[gallivant_fellow]

ETWOLVERINE, I did not in anyway judge what the CIA does as good or bad. I pasted on a paragraph from a government report that was found by a CIA expert(no press leak here). Then I posted a quote from the CIA expert. My question was if you are for or against the CIA's serious crimes and you anwered yes, whatever keeps us safe. I agree with that too, others may not.

In no way did I criticize our military, FBI, CIA or state "How it ought to be" anywhere in my post. The article from this gov. report, IC21, is however offensive to the CIA. That's why I asked whether people care what they do or not.

[Dark_crow]

I, personally, don't care too much about their serious crimes. I do want to hear people's ethical standpoints on the issue though. I mean, The War On Terror. The CIA uses terrorism sneakier and more effectively than anyone on the planet. I'm just glad I'm friends with the bully.

So that's what you believe?

[gallivant_fellow]

Counteracting Jihadism(guerrilla warfare)s a complicated endeavour, to say the least! It can be called a war, but the traditional definition and conduct of war is not effective against Jihaism. :)

America is going to defend herself against these psychopaths, misfits, and drunk on religion Jihaists in the strongest possible way.

So, you say you are friends with the Jihadists....GOOD LUCK....we're gonna kill a load of them in the coming decades.

I mean I'm glad I'm friends with the CIA. I called them the bully because they are bigger and stronger. I'm American too by the way. My best friend since kindergarten is over there protecting us (Army intelligence).