[BABRAM]

Hi ETW-

I think the laws that are broken are addendum's of the immigration issue, for example: ID theft. When an individual does not follow the immigration process they forfeit the possibility of any future privilege. Those that are here illegally are detained are usually sent back from where they came. Of course if Homeland Security has any suspensions that need to come to light then I suspect that illegal activities are involved. But I can see why Shai could very well be correct. If we look at the formation of the US govt, everyone originally being aliens with exception to the Native Americans, at what point did "illegal" become relevant?


Bobby

[excon]

Alleging bigotry isn't a solution either....And you seem to have your own jaundice view on immigrants: refering to them as dishwashers and lawn help, when they may well be highly educated and desired, or uneducated and unemployable. I'm sure you'll pounce on this...

Hello again, Captain:

I don't know about pounce, but I'll certainly discuss it with you.

I agree, alleging bigotry isn't a solution, unless one is pointing out bigotry. In my view, anytime you point to a people and start calling them "they" and start saying they do this, and they do that... It's bigotry.

THEY don't do anything other than what YOU would do. They're like us. They're seeking a better life. I doubt their highly educated. The educated are the moneyed class and they can PAY their way here legally. So yes, they're leaf blowers.

Let me ask you this, Captain. Here's a real life question. Let's say you live in Montana. Montana has no jobs. People in Montana are hungry. Idaho, on the other hand, has a lots of jobs. But they don't want Montanans taking them, so they make it illegal to cross their border.

So, there you are - a willing hard worker in Montana, and your family is hungry. You walk up to the border. You look over there and see a help wanted sign. You're going to walk over there and get that job, aren't you?

No, the problem is your congress. Look, I smoke pot. You know I do. I'm not the problem. The law that would make what I do illegal IS the problem. You know that to be true.

Same thing with illegal's.

excon

[CaptainRich]

Hi ETW-

I think the laws that are broken are addendum's of the immigration issue, for example: ID theft. I can see why Shai could very well be correct. If we look at the formation of the US govt, everyone being aliens with exception to the Native Americans, at what point did "illegal" become relevant?!


Bobby

Very good point, Bobby!

The original native occupants (they weren't American's until labeled as such) didn't recognize any need for a universal body of representatives, to protect their various nations from unseen threats and invasion.

What if someone, with sufficient backing, came into your home, declared that they had "discovered" it? You'd be moved to a far corner of a distant neighbors backyard. And the best you could hope for is a casino with your (unfortunately) diminishing tribe's name.

[BABRAM]

Very good point, Bobby!

The original native occupants (they weren't American's until labeled as such) didn't recognize any need for a universal body of representatives, to protect their various nations from unseen threats and invasion.

What if someone, with sufficient backing, came into your home, declared that they had "discovered" it? You'd be moved to a far corner of a distant neighbors backyard. And the best you could hope for is a casino with your (unfortunately) diminishing tribe's name.

Yes. In reference to when I mentioned "Native Americans" that has more to do with the continent considering there were/are so many tribes. Historically the conquering territories are sometimes disguised in our text books as annexed land. I remember when our govt and society would vilify the former the USSR when in effect, we did the same. I suppose we could say that national organization of former immigrants occurred more so following the civil war onward. Of course, then came big brother.


Bobby

[nicespringgirl]

Hello nice girl:

There’s the numbers, and then there’s the spin on what the numbers mean. You’re spinning.

There’s 300 million of us. 50 million of us are illegal. That’s 20%. If that’s the number of illegal’s in jail (and it is), that means they commit NO MORE crime than citizens do. Same thing with welfare.

The problem is the right wing spin machine. It’s been going on forever. Look around. If you see a problem, it’s the Mexicans fault, it’s the blacks fault, it’s the Jews fault.

They do a good job too, cause you people buy into it. Me??? Nahhh. I’m no bigot. These people are no different than you and me.

excon

PS> (edited) Before I’m misunderstood, let me be clear. I don’t support illegal immigration. The problem, however, is with YOUR GOVERNMENT – NOT the leaf blowers.

There are 21,075,434 illegal immigrates in the US today, and there is 33% of the prison population made up of illegal immigrates. That means they have a higher crime rates than legal citizens.

[CaptainRich]

national organization of former immigrants

Bobby

NOFI isn't new. The concept has been in use virtually since the beginning of time. It probably began with the Neanderthal. Before any concept of "borders" was even contrived. Someone see's something, wants it and so takes it. If not enough resistance is offered... or submission is easier, no additional conflict will arise. Family or clan, gregarious groups or individuals, have all been engaged in this type behavior. But that line of thought should have it's own thread.

Let's not get off the topic. Since man has civilized, at least a little, many sovereign borders have been agreed upon, rescinded, fought over, redrawn and/or completely forgotten. But of the all the borders agreed upon, our nations borders are what we want recognized. And having had them recognized by most of the nations of the world, Mexico included, is really the sum of our concern. For very good reasons.

What if 21 + million American's, as individuals of our own volition, chose to disregard our nations agreement with another country, and we descended upon them, we'd be arrested in that country and charged, possibly worse. And we'd be put in their pretty jails. And held accountable by their standards. Maybe we'd get one phone call. Maybe we'd be protected by their constitution. Maybe we'd have a court appointed lawyer. We still would have no right to be there.

[nicespringgirl]

CaptainRich agrees: My pic is one of my favorite views of life...

Are you a pirate? :D

[BABRAM]

There are 21,075,434 illegal immigrates in the US today, and there is 33% of the prison population made up of illegal immigrates. That means they have a higher crime rates than legal citizens.

Thanks for sharing the stats. BTW because of your astute observation on board members avatars displayed earlier, I decided to post a picture on the forum. The picture was taken in February 2007 of my wife and I on the Mt. Charleston resort about 45 minutes outside of Las Vegas. I'll post some different photos in the future. :)



Bobby

[excon]

There are 21,075,434 illegal immigrates in the US today,

Hello again, spring girl:

I don't know. That's an awfully specific number. Because it's so specific, I tend to doubt its authenticity. Citizens are hard enough to get an accurate count on. I can't imagine we would know exactly how many illegal's are here.

Since one of the numbers you use is suspect, the other is similarly questionable. Unless, of course, you can site a reliable source.

excon

[CaptainRich]

Are you a pirate??:D

No, I'm not a bonafide pirate. But that's my dog, Tripod! :p :p

[nicespringgirl]

Hello again, spring girl:

I dunno. That's an awfully specific number. Because it's so specific, I tend to doubt its authenticity. Citizens are hard enough to get an accurate count on. I can't imagine we would know exactly how many illegal's are here.

Since one of the numbers you use is suspect, the other is similarly questionable. Unless, of course, you can site a reliable source.

excon

Yea, I know... but the point is that illegal immigrants have a higher criminal rate. I mean, buddy, you are in jail, you know most of your homies there don't speak english.;)
I read the 1/3 of prison population thing ang googled the other specific no.
Here I found something but it's a bit old."Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

[BABRAM]

NOFI isn't new. The concept has been in use virtually since the beginning of time. It probably began with the Neanderthal. Before any concept of "borders" was even contrived. Someone see's something, wants it and so takes it. If not enough resistance is offered...or submission is easier, no additional conflict will arise. Family or clan, gregarious groups or individuals, have all been engaged in this type behavior. But that line of thought should have it's own thread.

Rich- I agree. Notice I didn't capitalize the word "organization." It was not suggesting a group by using an Acronym. It was in reference to becoming organized as a government, more so after the Civil War as how we've reached this current govt..

Let's not get off the topic. Since man has civilized, at least a little, many sovereign borders have been agreed upon, rescinded, fought over, redrawn and/or completely forgotten. But of the all the borders agreed upon, our nations borders are what we want recognized. And having had them recognized by most of the nations of the world, Mexico included, is really the sum of our concern. For very good reasons.

I agree. But remember those borders in the Southwest part of the current US were a part of Mexico's northern territory.

What if 21 + million American's, as individuals of our own volition, chose to disregard our nations agreement with another country, and we descended upon them, we'd be arrested in that country and charged, possibly worse. And we'd be put in their pretty jails. And held accountable by their standards. Maybe we'd get one phone call. Maybe we'd be protected by their constitution. Maybe we'd have a court appointed lawyer. We still would have no right to be there.

I have no doubt. However, usually the case is that it's much easier to become a resident in other countries. In fact many US citizens upon retirement have chosen to move elsewhere.



Bobby

[CaptainRich]

Bobby
I know you didn't suggest the acronym to be a real org.
But our borders, particularly our southern border, having been established and acknowledged globally, even like I said by the Mex gov't, those borders have been blurred by complacency. That was then, this is now. Maybe the people there disagree with history.

We gave up our political rights to the Panama Canal. Personally, I didn't like the decision, but I can't control my gov't, or any other, by ignoring laws and agreements we inadvertently approved of.

And, yes, many have chosen to take their retirements elsewhere, making the dollar go further by moving to a place that has a poorer economy. That's a personal decision. And to what end? I think it shows lack of honest support for the U.S. Agree or disagree, I'll categorize them with big business outsourcing and moving to third world countries. It's the same mentality. I can't blame them but I don't have to approve.

[BABRAM]

Hi Rich-

If that means living elsewhere I can't blame the retirees either. I'd do the same. In fact I have a second home in SE Asia. I wouldn't mind having a third pad in Mexico except that I'm not a citizen and can't own the land. I also have a birthright to live in Israel. My ideal spot would be to retire to the backwoods of Texas and do some fishing. Maybe I can afford this if my brother or other family members decide to split costs. Anyway, the large corporations of our nation have outsourced and our dollar is not as strong as it once was. Is this international/global economics? We import daily and the average American will buy a product made from other countries many times over during a lifetime. For example: many of the cars, as Americans, we enjoy driving are owned by foreign companies. The only profit we capitalize upon is taxation (tariffs), the maintenance labor, and that some of the parts are produced from American factories.


Bobby

[jillianleab]

In my view, anytime you point to a people and start calling them "they" and start saying they do this, and they do that........ It's bigotry.

*ahem* *coughcough*

THEY don't do anything other than what YOU would do. They're like us. They're seeking a better life. I doubt their highly educated. The educated are the moneyed class and they can PAY their way here legally. So yes, they're leaf blowers.

*coughcough*

Bigot :)

What if 21 + million American's, as individuals of our own volition, chose to disregard our nations agreement with another country, and we descended upon them, we'd be arrested in that country and charged, possibly worse. And we'd be put in their pretty jails. And held accountable by their standards. Maybe we'd get one phone call. Maybe we'd be protected by their constitution. Maybe we'd have a court appointed lawyer. We still would have no right to be there.

So perhaps we should treat this as an invasion?

[CaptainRich]

So perhaps we should treat this as an invasion?

We? Invaded?
Yes, in a way... One by one, ten by ten, sometimes larger groups. "They've" declared it as such in California. Several month ago, they called it a migration and they would slowly out number us because the federal gov't doesn't have the 'nads to step up. And so far, that's been a fairly accurate assessment.
Haven't you noticed?

[jillianleab]

We? Invaded?
Yes, in a way... One by one, ten by ten, sometimes larger groups. "They've" declared it as such in California. Several month ago, they called it a migration and they would slowly out number us because the federal gov't doesn't have the 'nads to step up. And so far, that's been a fairly accurate assessment.
Haven't you noticed?

I know my post sounds snarky, but yes, in a way it could be viewed as an invasion of sorts. My husband and I discussed this a while ago, and he said something similar to what you said in your previous post. We joked and asked why the immigration hasn't been seen as a hostile takeover! :)

I'm honestly sort of on the fence (get it?) about the issue. On the one hand I respect the fact that these people are trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, and that they are trying to get out of horrible living conditions in Mexico. But on the other hand, I don't see why our border should have a big neon OPEN sign on it... There are plenty of people who come here legally, after all. I have several close friends who came to the US from Africa who are TICKED OFF about the special treatment illegal immigrants get, and that's from some of the most liberal people I've ever met. I'd say I'm sure our federal gubment will come up with a suitable plan that makes sense, but well... then I'd just be wrong. So I'll say this; I'm sure our gubment will come up with a plan that makes no one happy, more people angry and costs us a whole bunch o' money.

[excon]

But on the other hand, I don't see why our border should have a big neon OPEN sign on it...

Hello again, jillian:

You make a key point. However, I think it defeats your argument.

I maintain that IF the door was open to legal immigration (like all you people keep saying it is), then there would be NO NEON sign. The jobs WOULD be filled by LEGALS.

But, they're not. That tells me the spigot isn't open wide enough. Indeed. When legal immigration takes YEARS and costs $1,000's, the spigot is way backed up. When the spigot backs up, the neon sign comes ON.

Clearly, anybody who DID wait all those years and PAID all that money isn't going to be happy about people who didn't. I'M not happy about people who didn't! But, I certainly understand why they come. And, I certainly know who to blame.

excon

[CaptainRich]

It hasn't been seen as a hostile takeover because it's more like water torture... a steady trickle. "Oh, it's only a few more..."

Plenty could and probably should be done. Or more correctly, should have been done.

But the problem today is something that could have controlled the leak hasn't been given the air time in the past that the issue deserved. Now, something that cost fifty bucks when it would have helped will cost several million bucks now, and won't likely be enough.

[jillianleab]

Hello again, jillian:

You make a key point. However, I think it defeats your argument.

I maintain that IF the door was open to legal immigration (like all you people keep saying it is), then there would be NO NEON sign. The jobs WOULD be filled by LEGALS.

But, they're not. That tells me the spigot isn't open wide enough. Indeed. When legal immigration takes YEARS and costs $1,000's, the spigot is way backed up. When the spigot backs up, the neon sign comes ON.

Clearly, anybody who DID wait all those years and PAID all that money isn't going to be happy about people who didn't. I'M not happy about people who didn't! But, I certainly understand why they come. And, I certainly know who to blame.

excon

Actually, excon, I agree with you; there would be no glowing OPEN sign if legal immigration policies were changed. And I don't know why you insist on considering me one of "those people" (is that you being a bigot again?? :)) I've told you time and time again, I'm not elephant, nor am I a donkey. But whatever.

The current system is broken - I think that's one thing we all agree on. The question is what to do about it? Some people think we should close our borders and not let another brown person into the country ever again. Some people think we should make Mexico a state. Both those ideas are horrible. My opinion is, we should work on policies which allow for legal immigration in reasonable time frames and for reasonable prices so the people who want to come here can get here and receive fair wages, pay taxes, be contributing members of our society, even vote someday. The nagging second question is what to do with the illegals who are here presently, which is where tensions usually arise. The blame lies with the gubment, you're certainly right about that. And not just the US gubment, but the Mexican gubment, the Guatemalan gubment, the Venezuelan gubment...