[nauticalstar420]

excon agrees: I'm sure they're bothered too, by they're hungry children. You didn't answer my question. Even though it would bother you, would you cross the border to get a job?

I honestly don't know. On one hand, of course I would want to feed my children and try to make their lives better, BUT, on the other hand, I'm not too big on breaking the law. Breaking the law usually equals going to jail, and I'm not real big on being locked in somewhere I can't leave.

I guess it would just have to come down to me being in that situation. And you really can't say that anyone would say "no I wouldnt cross" because there are still PLENTY of people in Mexico who stay there and haven't crossed.

[nauticalstar420]

I also forgot to add, for the slim few that actually do go to jail for getting caught jumping the border, how are they doing their children any good from jail? At least of they had stayed in Mexico, the children would have their parents with them.

[excon]

Hello again, naut:

Nobody is in jail for just crossing the border. When they catch 'em, they just ship 'em back.

The solution, of course, isn't just to keep the borders open. We DO need to keep out the people we want to keep out. But, at the same time, we need to open up the border to the workers we need. That's a comprehensive fix that your federal government WON'T do. Shame on them.

In my view, congress is to blame. Congress let this situation happen by doing nothing over the last 50 years. We didn't mind illegal's then. Everybody had one working for them.

Then 9/11 happened, and we saw that our southern border was porous. It needs to be fixed. That's just so.

The part about this whole thing that I don't understand, is how these illegal workers, who have been here for generations, are all of a sudden, criminals.

excon

[jillianleab]

However, there are also communities who are doing the opposite and welcoming the immigrants. That's a clear message too - if you're illegal we won't let you be exploited because of it in our community. We like clean dishes.

You're right. Another county which neighbors mine is refusing to do anything about their immigrant problem. To them, it's not a problem. Virginia Beach (which is a few hours from here) is often referred to as a haven for illegals.

Criminalizing leaf blowers, however, ain't it.

I agree with you there. The immigrants who are here and obeying our laws (well, aside from that whole immigration thing... ) and are integrating into our society shouldn't be criminalized. I have a friend who was brought here by his mom when he was 5. They had fake papers and they lived here, worked, went to school, never broke the law. I don't think people like THAT need to be deported. BUT, the ones who commit crimes are a different story. I remember reading a story about a guy who managed to stay in this country after being arrested because he argued returning him to Mexico would be "cruel and unusual punishment". Right.

It's sad the socioeconomic situation in Mexico and other countries south of the US is so bad people are willing to risk their lives to come here for better opportunities. Coming across the border isn't easy; a lot of people die, become injured, and women are frequently raped by the very people helping them cross. It's sad. But the open border also allows drugs and undesirable people to come here too, and that's bad for us. I'll admit, I don't know the process, cost and time table for legally coming to the US, but let's just say it's expensive and lengthy. If our govt would devise a plan to make LEGAL immigration more steamlined and at the same time PROTECT our borders, I think we would be making a step in the right direction.

[nauticalstar420]

I have seen a couple of programs on Fox News showing them getting arrested for trying to jump the border illegally. But I can't really say much for television, not all of it is true.

I don't think the ones that come here for work are criminals. I think the ones that come here, feed off us, sit around, and do nothing are criminals. If they want to come here to work and better themselves and their families, that is fine. They are working for what they are getting and that is great.

Where I was born and raised now is full of Hispanics. There are some there that are there to work, but there are a TON there that don't do anything. We are starting to become overrun by the ones that are here just to be here, nothing else. I mean there has to be a limit to who can come here, and what their purpose is in being here.

[excon]

Hello again:

Jillian: We agree. Naut: We agree.

They do, of course, arrest them. They even take them to a detention facility for a few days, and then they ship them back. Nobody, however, is doing time for crossing the border.

Let's all sing cumbaya.

excon

[shygrneyzs]

Embrace them all, make sure they get an education, a job, pay taxes, and do not go on welfare. One could wonder who is left in Mexico? The wealthy?

[nauticalstar420]

Embrace them all, make sure they get an education, a job, pay taxes, and do not go on welfare. One could wonder who is left in Mexico? The wealthy?

No. There are plenty of the poor still in Mexico that choose to stay there.

I don't know about other states, but in California we have given them the benefit of the doubt and tried to educate them. Hell, everything there (billboards, newspapers, classes in school, etc.) are in Spanish. We did this to help them. They don't care.

My high school even taught in Spanish to help them get an education. Barely any of them showed up to class. They don't want an education.

[jillianleab]

Hello again:

Jillian: We agree.

HOLY CRAP! :eek:

:D

[JH123]

What about a North American Union like the European Union??

Bush approved of a new large highway for trade from Mexico to Canada...looking ahead, the corporate Republicans are and dragging along the religious Republicans with promises and propaganda.

North American Union? Political bulsh.ts. The European Union hasn't worked since the new economical undeveloped countries was accepted.

[ETWolverine]

Here are the actions that should be taken to stop the flow if illegal immigrants across the border.

1) Complete the fence.

2) Have the National Guard train in that area. Since it is almost all desert anyway, it becomes an excellent training ground for the military engagements we can expect in the Middle East for the next couple of decades or so. And while they are there training, they can also do border patrols... good training for controlling the border of a hostile environment while at war.

3) Enforce the current laws regarding illegal immigrants and the hiring thereof. People who hire illegal immigrants should face sanctions and even jail time, as per current law. People who cross the border illegally should be deported.

4) Eliminate the "anchor-baby" rules. The fact that an illegal immigrant had a baby here should not keep them from being deported.

5) Increase spending and manpower to enforce the laws instead of encouraging Immigration and Naturalization to ignore the laws.

It is that simple. By taking these steps, we can virtually eliminate the flow of illegals into the country. We can eliminate the incentive for them to come here, the incentive for people to hire them, and the ease with which they get here. Not only that, but we can severely lower the number of illegals who are already here.

Excon has mentioned that all these illegals want is to clean our dishes and mow our lawns. Aside from the fact that this is not true --- many of them traffic drugs and become violent criminals (aside from the fact that they are illegal immigrants, I mean) --- I ask "SO WHAT?"

Should the fact that "all they want is to clean our dishes" be a reason to let them in and give them legal status? I don't think so. Keep in mind that the majority do not pay taxes, and are a net COST to this country, not a producer. We have enough poverty in this country without importing it from elsewhere.

Furthermore, they are taking jobs from Americans; construction jobs, agricultural jobs, pool-cleaning jobs, lawn-mowing jobs, and dish-washing jobs. If they want these jos, then can get them in their countries of origin. If they can't find those jobs in their country of origin, IT ISN'T OUR PROBLEM. Let them overthrow their government and install one that creates a decent economy with a decent living wage. Let them bring their country's economy and wage level up instead of bringing ours down. The argument that all they want to do is wash our dishes doesn't wash with me.

And the fact that "Americans want cheap labor" doesn't hold any water either. The fact that they want cheap labor doesn't mean that they should get it. The free market should control the wages, not the import of illegal labor. If all the dishwashers in this country demand $10/hour to wash dishes, then restaurants should pay $10/hour to dishwashers, not $5/hour to illegal immigrants. If the restaurants can't survive paying $10/hour, then let them go out of business. If the only way that a business can survive is through illegal ativity, then let it not survive.

By importing illegal labor, we are not only killing jobs for unemployed Americans, we are keeping wages of Americans down artificially, and condemning illegal aliens to slave laor at the same time. In response, the government raises the minimum wage, which does nothing to help the illegal immigrants who are working for slave wages, and always lags behind the market so that it doesn't really help Americans.

By cutting off the illegal immigrant labor pool, the wages are restored to market norms which helps poor Americans, and decreases poverty levels in the USA.

There is absolutely no convincing reason to permit illegal immigration.

Elliot

[CaptainRich]

We're complaining about oil consumption in the US. Deport ALL illegals to their respective countries, thereby reducing the load. Anybody who wants to immigrate starts with military service (screened, of course) or public service of some sort. They will be deployed to help the allied efforts around the US and around the world. We bring our troops home to guard the borders.

[Starman]

If only the U.S. would change and improve its immigration policies, no fence or sharpshooters would be necessary.

Wondergirl agrees: They pick our crops too, don't forget. What white person wants to slave (bent over for hours) out in a hot, dirty field and get all itchy?


You really believe that these people like to get hot dirty and itchy because they are generally darker than Anglos? I suppose the Afros were even happier still getting hot dirty and itchy while working in the hot sun in the cotton fields since they are even darker? Right? Maybe you interpret blacks singing while they worked as a sign of happiness? After all, what white person could possibly think of singing under those horrendous conditions? No?

BTW

You, Madam are a racist par excellence!

[Wondergirl]

Find me a white teenager who willingly goes out into the fields to pick crops. If you find one, he is probably the farmer's child and he/she probably isn't real happy about it. Teens don't even want to work at fast-food restaurants any more -- not high enough pay for one thing.

I'm saying more power to those not white who are willing to get hot, dirty, and itchy to harvest white people's crops for nothing pay. Why aren't whites out there in the field too?

[nauticalstar420]

Find me a white teenager who willingly goes out into the fields to pick crops. If you find one, he is probably the farmer's child and he/she probably isn't real happy about it. Teens don't even want to work at fast-food restaurants any more -- not high enough pay for one thing.

I'm saying more power to those not white who are willing to get hot, dirty, and itchy to harvest white people's crops for nothing pay. Why aren't whites out there in the field too?

They are! Have you seen the central valley of California? Yes, there are migrant workers working there, obviously. But there are white people doing it too. There are plenty of them that aren't farmers kids that do it because they want a job and the extra money.

The white teens nowadays aren't as bad as you claim them to be, at least not where I'm from.

**EDIT** I would also like to add that its not always nothing pay. There are some migrant workers that make more than some people that work behind a desk. And, I did the job, because I wanted to. I am not a farmer's child.

[nauticalstar420]

Wondergirl agrees: Wow! The Midwest is entirely different.

Where I am from, farming is like our culture. Everyone gets in on it. I will agree though, that the majority of the workers are migrant workers, but there are tons of white people that do it too.

But just because where you are from it is mostly, or all, migrant workers that do your farming, that does not make you racist. I don't see where that came from anyway.

[Starman]

Where I am from, farming is like our culture. Everyone gets in on it. I will agree though, that the majority of the workers are migrant workers, but there are tons of white people that do it too.

But just because where you are from it is mostly, or all, migrant workers that do your farming, that does not make you racist. I dont see where that came from anyways.

That's because you are creating your own argument, tagging it as mine and then saying that it doesn't make sense. In any case, denial is expected since most people in the USA do their thing almost as if it were second nature and if the anyone points it out they say it wasn't really meant that way. Actually, the whole casually-inflict-and vehement-denial scenario is an almost instinctive American cultural thing. Whether Europeans or other Anglos elsewhere are in the same habit I don't know. But here in the good ole USA it's a pervasive accepted practice.

[nauticalstar420]

That's because you are creating your own argument, tagging it as mine and then saying that it doesn't make sense.

If there are white people where she lives that won't do the job, and the migrant workers will, the fact that she's saying so does not make her racist. You went off on this whole "African Amercans picking cotton" thing, when it has no relevance. They were FORCED to pick cotton (besides the fact that that was a long time ago, and hasn't been applied for a while), the Mexicans CHOOSE to work in the fields. Nobody forces them to do anything.

She said she wasn't racist, so she's not.

[Wondergirl]

My comment, "They pick our crops too, don't forget. What white person wants to slave (bent over for hours) out in a hot, dirty field and get all itchy?" was not derogatory toward people of color but toward white people who won't dirty their hands and do what used to be called common labor. Btw, I'm the descendant of Idaho and Illinois farmers, and a thousand years ago spent my teen summers picking fruit in the orchards of western NY State.

[CaptainRich]

I saw today on the news that Mexico plans to sue the US in international court to stop the fences. That's ironic. They don't care to keep their own citizens home.

For all we have to say about national sanctity and sovereignty, they apparently lack that same pride, to make the same efforts at home. What are they running from? Is Mexico such a bad place that they just can't stand it? Why can't they remain and turn things around there?