[French Yankee]

I'm wondering if anyone out there has heard of a 50 year deadline for affirming dual citizenship? And if so, do you know any simple technicalities or ways around the rule? I am age 57. I think I've been writing the French Consulate since I was 47 in 1998 and never once got a reply.

Sylvie Obert of the French Consulate in Chicago has just sent me an email stating:

"After 50 years without any French document, you loose your right to ask for the French nationality through your French mother. As you are born in 1951, you can't be French anymore."

I'm devastated to hear such a harsh rule.
- French Yankee

[lawanwadee]

I am not surprise... as a matter of fact, immigration laws in many countries have been changed after 9/11. UK and a few EU countries no longer grant citizenship to babies born to alien parents, though they have legal status. Permanent residents are required to live in the country for a certain period, otherwise the status will be revoked, etc.

In case that you hold dual citizenship, you must maintain record of yourself at all time, which means you must have passports, IDs, and military records in both countries. At this point, I am afraid there is nothing you can do. Sorry.. not much help this time.

[French Yankee]

a few EU countries no longer grant citizenship to babies born to alien parents, though they have legal status. Permanent residents are required to live in the country for a certain period of time, otherwise the status will be revoked, etc.

In case that you hold dual citizenship, you must maintain record of yourself at all time, which means you must have passports, IDs, and military records in both countries. At this point, I am afraid there is nothing you can do.

I understand that being born in France to a non-French parent requires living there at "age of majority" to keep French nationality. But I'm not in that situation. I'm (jus sanguinis) a US-born son of French mother (and she was born in France to French parents). In countless searches on the Net, including some on French civil code, they seem to indicate that French nationality is inherited AT BIRTH by ANY offspring of one French parent, without any specific petition or filing, notwithstanding that one must obviously prove the fact of French parentage. And yet I still cannot find one single reference that states any documentation deadline or cutoff if no declaration has been made by a specific age (or age fifty). Given that French nationality is inherited by having a French parent, it would seem that it is a fundamental right and not something that must be obtained. And to strip a dual US/French citizen of inherited French nationality would seem just as extraordinary as doing it to any other French citizen.

The correspondent from the consulate may very well be correct or mistaken. I have a hunch she is mistaken unless she is in fact an expert and not just a clerk there. I would just like to see any official online or other document that even mentions the alleged fifty year deadline. I have searched about nine consulate web sites and dozens of web sites. The fifty year rule is just not verifiable yet. I shall dig for weeks before I accept or reject the consulate correspondent's answer. And I may unfortunately have to waste money on a lawyer if I don't find a clear citation in French civil code.
- French Yankee

[acrules3]

Here is a reference that agrees with the Chicago Consulate:

Conditions for the obtention of the french nationality — EuskoSare

Read the part that says "automatic loss by disuse". Obviously it was translated from the original French, which I cannot find, but it is pretty straightforward. It says that even if someone may be born a French citizen, they need to make a claim to it at some point before they turn 50 years old - otherwise they lose it by "disuse".

Call a lawyer to see if you have a claim otherwise. It looks like the Consulate will not be willing to help you.

[French Yankee]

Thank you acrules3 for your interpretation and sincere effort to answer my question about the French 50 year rule. The problem is getting a precise translation of the law as well as the language and there are precious few places where it is posted. I have seen some on consulate web sites and other French immigration pages. And interestingly, two consulates even disagree on when one must apply. (and some people confuse other rules pertaining to foreigners but I am offspring of French mother). The web link you provide is actually a bit encouraging for me if you look at the wording carefully and I think you may have missed a point that it makes. It says:

"The person who established its residence abroad ((my French mother in the USA)), as well as its ancestors ((me, the French Yankee)), more than fifty years ago and which cannot present any evidence of french nationality for him nor for its ancestors of French origin (French identity documents, transcription of certificate by the civil register, military affairs, etc.) can not pretend to the french nationality by filiation."

Important distinction: My mother has all these documents for herself.

If the web age was interpreted correctly, then THE KEY WORD IN THE QUOTED PARAGRAPH IS "NOR". It means that either A) I must show that I have already had French status before age 50 OR B) I must show that my mother has maintained documentation of her French identity. This is encouraging because it appears to say that EITHER of us must show having the documentation. In other words, if my mother is still documented as French, then I still have the right to apply and the right to obtain French citizenship. This interpretation would make sense. The actual rule is called Article 30-3 of the French Civil Code. I have seen the code and it basically says the same thing with less clarity.

I hope you see my point. It seems that article 30-3 is intended to do do things: 1) It is intended to remove citizenship from any French person who moves to foreign country (USA) if they go a whole 50 years without current French documentation and 2) It prevents the offspring of that person from claiming French citizenship unless they otherwise have become French through some other means.

Pray I am correct and I'm pretty sure that my mother has been documented at least once in the last 50 years, perhaps at least in her return travels to France as late as 1978. Otherwise I'm definitely screwed.

[acrules3]

It looks like French judges have a lot of discretion in these cases. I guess if you can prove that your mother has enjoyed the status of a French national over the past 50 years, then you may have a case.

If you have not read this yet, you can go to http://195.83.177.9/upl/pdf/code_22.pdf and read more about the Civil Code. The article that may also be relevant in your case is 23-6.

I am afraid that your battle looks like it is uphill. You may want to retain a lawyer who is well versed in French Nationality issues...

[French Yankee]

I agree. It's an uphill battle. But with proper application by an attorney they might just be satisfied.

I have a strong hunch that article 30-3 is technically on my side but won't know for sure until I talk to the right attorney. I'm hoping to make a journey of about 2,000 miles from Ohio by Spring to go live in Arizona for awhile, and get my mother's cooperation there and her French papers. She is starting to have age-related memory problems and has had 3 heart attacks in the last 20 years, so I have to act fast. I have a strong feeling that some of the people within the consulates are merely bureaucratic functionaries who interpret their own French laws crudely. They may be swamped with applicants all the time. And most of these applicants have no knowledge of how to complain if they are treated rudely or refused the help of the consulate. So I would imagine that the French consulates are low in morale for being overworked and not closely supervised by the French government. I mean I've been writing to them for so many years and did not get any reply at all until this month.

I was treated rudely by Sylvie Obert of the Chicago Consulate who indelicately told me that I am "not French". I would never have the coldness to speak to someone that way. Regardless how this turns out, I am in fact very French despite being molded American in every way including language. Part of being French besides my maternal bloodline, is culture and I tend to gravitate toward many studies and interests in the arts of France. When I emailed asking Ms. Obert to refer my inquiry to someone higher at the consulates, I did not get a further reply. I agree with you that it takes a lawyer to have any chance. My plan is to submit my mother's French papers and my birth certificate (showing French mother) to the consulate through an attorney (for best chance of complying with formalities). That would at least lay the foundation for putting myself on record even if they refuse. What's really unclear at this beginning stage is legal precedent. I'm sure that there is a lot of legal precedent established in the French courts on the article 30-3 issue. I would assume it's a nightmare just to find a solid attorney who is both diligent and versed in French immigration technicalities.

Yes I think I have recently seen article 23-6 also. If I recall correctly, that alludes to the French born parent who has been gone over 50 years but can show they have maintained communication with family members back in France. My mom has maintained strong ties with her French sister and relatives in Lorraine, France through letters, calls and visiting her homeland. But that is an issue where the French authorities have discretion. The big question remains whether article 30-3 even applies at all, since I believe she has never gone 50 whole years without updated French documentation. And that should be enough for both of us.

I'd like to hear from a 50 + year old US-born French nationality card applicant who has a documented French parent who has been living away from France for over 50 years. I'm sure there must be hundreds if not thousands.
- French Yankee

[Loveburns4me]

Keep on fighting!! I don't know if you'll win, but I'm about to gear up for a fight with the French consulate soon myself, and I know we need all the support we can get! As you've said, they are generally very unhelpful. If it makes you feel better to have company in this type of misfortune, I am 21 and have already been told that it's too late for my to claim my French dual citizenship because I did not apply before I turned 18. However, I did try, but as I was under 18 and a minor, my divorced mother refused to help me become a dual citizen because my father was the French one, she did not like him, and she had sole custody of me at the time. So, I'm also going to see if there's some kind of appeal I can file for, as I did attempt to lay claim to it as a minor, but it was completely legally out of my control. I wish you the best of luck and hope things go in your favor!

[French Yankee]

Thank you Loveburns4me for your moral support. And likewise, I hope the best for your dual French situation. It's very different than mine, You have one obstacle and I may have a different one. Right now I'm just trying to disentangle myself from projects here in Ohio and hoping to visit Arizona for awhile to be with my French-born American mom, hopefully by December or it might have to wait. My goal is to gather up all possible documentation in preparation for formal application through the consulate, then the (reportedly difficult) French nationality court if the consulate continues to refuse help. It's critical for both you and me to research this stuff ever more precisely and never stop because you have to find the best legal interpretations of the civil code and find people with very similar situations. You and I should each hire an attorney who is knowledgeable in how the relevant articles of the French Civil Code are applied. The important thing for both of us is to gather up and submit all documentation ASAP with appropriate French translation and formal request for certification of French nationality status. You should go through the process thoroughly even if your chances may appear discouraging because you never know: Laws and the way they are applied may change. The French courts may choose to interpret their nationality laws differently. In my case I still believe Iam entitled to French nationality despite age 57 because my mother has probably maintained French documentation and I believe the Civil Code appears to say that would be sufficient to negate the 50 year rule. In your case, I don't know, but just be sure to go through a formal application and have it submitted by a lawyer you trust and thus lay the foundation that you applied.Even if you fail, having that application on file might conceivably help if you later find some other route to French citizenship.

[Loveburns4me]

Thank you for your recommendations French Yankee! I think those are good ideas. However, there maybe some light at the end of your tunnel as well. I went to the French consulate in San Francisco yesterday with my French Father, and low and behold the woman who dealt with us claimed that there is no longer an age limit. Obviously it is harder once you are an adult, especially go get all the necessary papers, as my father is 74, his house burnt down ( with all his papers in it) and the paperwork requires you to go as far back as your parents great great grandparents ( putting my paternal ones at sometime in the mid 1800's) but as you said, with the right gumption, it can be done! Have you talked to any other officials other than the one with the snooty note? I don't know if it's just in true liberal SF fashion for the French consulate there to wave everyone through, but if she told us there is no age limit, I don't see how one consulate could have the authority to deny you of it when another is waving everyone through. Definitely go through with your face to face trip, and if all else fails, come to the consulate in SF!

[French Yankee]

Thanks again Loveburns4me! Your trip to the SF French Consulate is interesting. When the woman there told you there is no age limit, I am wondering if she was referring only to the age of majority (age 18) that is applied in some cases and perhaps was not referring also to the 50 year rule that the Chicago French Consulate applied to my inquiry. Whether she had all ages in mind or not, your case does sound encouraging. It seems to make no sense to use age in any way to block French nationalization. As people get older they tend to become more financially secure and experienced. So it just seems like age-ism to block 50 year olds who affirm their French right a little late in the game. Then on the issue of the family book, I've been wondering exactly what they mean. In my case, my French mother has the names of her grandparents in France but I'm not sure yet if she knows the names of her great grandparents. I've always assumed the family book refers to a scrap book of family photos and things. But I plan to research the family history as far back as possible anyway. Luckily, if it helps, I have borrowed photos of my mother's mother and have digital copies that I can print to bolster any paperwork. I am not ready to talk to any other consulate personnel until I make as many preparations as possible. And that is expected to take at least several months. I just keep praying my mom will not keep losing her memory or have another heart attack before I can visit Arizona. (Recent rumor is that she is forgetting to take her heart medication and I have seen other minor signs). I hope to spend several months there to get the whole family history. Sounds like you may have an open door at the SF French Consulate. Be sure to take that opportunity by following every detail ASAP before there's any chance of having to deal with anyone who is not so kind.

[letraindunord]

You might be intersted to follow this story:

"Quebec group requests French citizenship based on ancestry."

Here is the link:

Good luck!

[letraindunord]

You might be intersted to follow this story:

Here is the link on canada.com news:
Quebec group requests French citizenship based on ancestry

Good luck with yours !

Quebec group requests French citizenship based on ancestry

[French Yankee]

Merci, Letraindunord, I have not checked into my thread since November. Iam encouraged by your post. It is indeed an interesting article. I was looking at the interesting part that says: "Vallee originally requested duel citizenship in 2006, but was turned down because rules then stipulated her family must have resided in France in the last 50 years.

However, a new law says anyone can claim French citizenship as long as they can prove that they have ancestors who were born in France, explained Christian Neron, a Quebec City lawyer.

Neron provided Vallee with a legal argument to back up her request for citizenship. He believes Vallee is the first old-stock Quebecer to request French citizenship because of her colonial links.

“The law is fairly new, so not a lot of people know about it,” Neron said. “But it allows all people with French ancestry to hold electoral cards"

What's interesting here is two things:
1) This "new law" was apparently created since 2006 and
2) The attorney seems in the article to believe it applies to descendents of colonial French immigrants.

The only thing that seems unusual is that it sounds just too good to be true since a huge percentage of people all over the world have at least one French ancestor if they go back far enough. But given that I was born to French mom in USA in 1951, you may found something here. I think I will try to track down that attorney and see if he will kindly refer me to any citation of the new law.

Otherwise, I'm hoping to see my elderly mom in September (2,000 miles away in Arizona) and will probably consult with a French immigration attorney in Phoenix at that time. I thank you for giving me new hope!
- French Yankee

[letraindunord]

<<I think I will try to track down that attorney and see if he will kindly refer me to any citation of the new law.>>

For your information, reintegration is in the article 21-14 of the french immigration law.

Also, if you need it, here is his adress:

Me Christian Néron
594, rue Saint-Patrick
Québec (Québec)
G1R 1Y8
418 529-7065

Good luck.

[French Yankee]

I take no faith in the French citizenship claims of this attorney's Canadian client based on her 1690 French ancestors. All that interests me is the July, 2008 news article where the lawyer claims that new French law throws out the fifty year deadline for foreign-born grown children of French parents. The rambling civil code at <http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/html/codes_traduits/code_civil_textA.htm> identifies many articles that might apply to me as a 57 year old USA-born son of French mother living in the USA since the late 1940s. I flagged numerous articles from that document many months ago. But so far, an intense search on Google all evening has resulted in no web pages showing new French law regarding dual nationality. But then again, legal updates might not get much publicity. I will try to contact him when I get a chance and see if I can pry something out of him. I'd also like to hear from anyone else who has any clue about any "new" French law that throws out the 50 year deadline. And specifically, in the news article on Canada.com, the attorney says the new law came into existence since 2006. Naturally, if I could read French, I'd be Googling for a French language version of the civil code. So I'd like to know iwhat anyone knows about this "new law" that allegedly came into existence between 2006 and 2008. By the way, I'm skeptical but open minded and yearning for hope here.