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kiki_doki · Nov 30, 2007, 04:23 PM

I just wanted to see what the feeling was of the British teacher who is in a jail in Sudan for allowing the 6-7 year old children in her class to name him Mohammed. Just the other day on the news I heard that they (Sudan) were not getting any support in comparison to the whole Danish comic strip last year (which was horrendous and caused much distress). This didn't look very good for the Sudanese when people started saying they were overreacting. Then after Friday prayer a crowd of over a thousand started chanting that she(Gillian Gibbons) should be beheaded!! Does it seem that there is something else at work here apart from outrage (they weren't outraged yesterday or even this morning!! ) like maybe trying to save face... No one really seemed to be that bothered... ok maybe not such a good idea to name anything after any prophet (without double checking with your superiors, especially whilst in another country) but these are children and they revere their prophet so they were asked what's a good name, well there isn't a better name in Islam than Mohammed!! Surely there was a better way of dealing with it? Is this a valid reason for beheading someone?

Thoughts?

charlotte234s · Nov 30, 2007, 04:26 PM

I'm guessing they think it is blasphemy and does constitute strict punishment, and sadly, they do not tolerate religious freedom in their country, so I feel awful for that poor woman, she didn't do it to be mean or blaspheme their prophet, but basically, I feel it's ridiculous and they need to get over it. Poor woman. I don't call for the beheading of anyone who says "oh my God" or something I don't really like that much,

Extremists, it's pathetic.

angel0772001 · Nov 30, 2007, 04:30 PM

I think that its stupid let kids be kids they can name their teddy anything that they want to

kiki_doki · Nov 30, 2007, 04:32 PM

Well its not good, was discussing it with my husband (we're muslims) and it is very sad, it was accidental and the school could have done something to prevent this from happening!! They chose not to and now this poor woman and her family...

michealb · Nov 30, 2007, 04:37 PM

You have to remember that she is in Sudan, where they are basically looking for a reason to kill people who don't follow Islam. Hence the genocide.

kiki_doki · Nov 30, 2007, 04:40 PM

But why would they invite her to take a position at a school there? That's got me baffled... Educating their 6-7 year olds... if they were so concerned surely this would have seemed like a bad decision?

RubyPitbull · Nov 30, 2007, 09:35 PM

I can't answer the question about hiring her in the first place Kiki. However, it was a poor decision on her part knowing the situation in that country. When you think about the probability that the only way word of this could have gotten out of the school is through the children telling their parents what happened that day in school, she must have had some inkling earlier that at least one, two, or more of the parents didn't particularly like the idea of her teaching their children. It is very sad that she didn't take into account the response in the Danish newspaper last year and be extremely careful of what she said or did. Of course, what strikes me as oddly hypocritical in this whole affair is that men and boys are named Mohammed and it is not considered an insult. Those children chose the name of Mohammed for the teddy bear by voting on a number of mens names that they picked out. Unfortunately, in allowing this to occur, she brought Democracy into the classroom. Big no no.

I think this whole uproar has more to do with certain people looking for problems rather than it being an actual problem. I believe the Democratic voting that took place is the underlying reason for this. The lag in time in which suddenly people were rioting in the streets looking for this poor woman to be beheaded, suggests to me that this was fully instigated by extremists. They will grab a hold of and blow out of proportion any incident, no matter how small or benign, to strike against Western culture. When there is a Westerner teaching their children, I am sure that there is some amount of fear that they will lose their children to Western society/values. Those children were being taught they have an actual voice in the decision making process. That freedom of choice doesn't exist over there. Learning something like that might compel them to question how they live as they grow into adulthood. So, in a way, this excessive show is a form of damage control. I am sure the person who lit the initial fire is very proud of himself right now.

kiki_doki · Dec 1, 2007, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

I can't answer the question about hiring her in the first place Kiki. However, it was a poor decision on her part knowing the situation in that country. When you think about the probability that the only way word of this could have gotten out of the school is through the children telling their parents what happened that day in school, she must have had some inkling earlier that at least one, two, or more of the parents didn't particularly like the idea of her teaching their children. It is very sad that she didn't take into account the response in the Danish newspaper last year and be extremely careful of what she said or did. Of course, what strikes me as oddly hypocritical in this whole affair is that men and boys are named Mohammed and it is not considered an insult. Those children chose the name of Mohammed for the teddy bear by voting on a number of mens names that they picked out. Unfortunately, in allowing this to occur, she brought Democracy into the classroom. Big no no.

I think this whole uproar has more to do with certain people looking for problems rather than it being an actual problem. I believe the Democratic voting that took place is the underlying reason for this. The lag in time in which suddenly people were rioting in the streets looking for this poor woman to be beheaded, suggests to me that this was fully instigated by extremists. They will grab a hold of and blow out of proportion any incident, no matter how small or benign, to strike against Western culture. When there is a Westerner teaching their children, I am sure that there is some amount of fear that they will lose their children to Western society/values. Those children were being taught they have an actual voice in the decision making process. That freedom of choice doesn't exist over there. Learning something like that might compel them to question how they live as they grow into adulthood. So, in a way, this excessive show is a form of damage control. I am sure the person who lit the initial fire is very proud of himself right now.

Great post! The parents found out because she sent them a letter home introducing the teddy bear (by the chosen name) and saying in the letter he was going to visit their homes and could they write a diary with their children of what they did with the bear. Now somewhere this had to have been run by a senior teacher at the school. You don't go to a school in a different country without checking and double checking!! What saddens me is that these kinds of teaching methods are not available over there, opting more for the structured learning then any other type of model. The children would have been very excited, new teacher, new challenges and new ways of learning. This has now been removed and it is such a shame that yet again politics have taken over... why does this happen? What is there to prove? I HATE politics!!

RubyPitbull · Dec 1, 2007, 06:49 AM

Well, I guess you must have read or heard more detail on this than I did. I heard that the teddy bear was going to spend time at each child's house, but I hadn't heard any more details surrounding that. You are right, you would think that a senior teacher would have been her advisor and known about all of this. Hmm. Very interesting! Makes me wonder about the intentions of the person or people who were overseeing her lesson plan.

Yeah, politics bites. But, this is just so much more than simple politics as we know it. When we have such diverse cultural issues in the mix, it always leaves the door open for any situation to explode. We westerners are so hated in that part of the world. The United States & the UK in particular. When you have a country in which the information that is given out to the public is completely controlled by the governing body, people only know what they are being told. Just look at how the story itself was handled in the media. I am in the U.S. The story hit and initially info was limited. It was superceded here by some big "to do" locally in the area where I live. So, I was missing information. Now, we live in a democratic society and although I am sure there is information that is withheld at times by our governments, most of our information is controlled by the media. When you ask "Why does this happen" and "What is there to prove?" Well, in this particular situation, you have to look to the cultural climate of the region for your answer. You are an individual who has found balance between your religion and life in your country. As difficult as it is for you to comprehend such a reaction and this incident would be a non-issue where you live, if you were raised in the Sudan, you might not be so understanding.

s_cianci · Dec 1, 2007, 07:01 AM

It's a teddy bear for crying out loud ; a bunch of foam stuffing covered with artificial fur! And Mohammed is just a name for goodness sake! Come on now ; if this isn't insanity then I don't know what is! Sorry, but at this point any respect or empathy I may have had for Islam just went right out the window!

labman · Dec 1, 2007, 07:41 AM

Perhaps I will dig up the thread on saying ''Happy Holidays'' and put a link to this in it. Those offended by a Merry Christmas need to read this.

RubyPitbull · Dec 1, 2007, 08:02 AM

It is very easy for us to not comprehend the rationale behind this way of thinking when you consider our culture is so very different from the Sudanese. Our way of thinking is completely different. But to condemn the entire Islamic world over this incident isn't really fair cianci. This situation, after all, occurred in a country that is in a region of great unrest. As Kiki has noted, she is Moslem and she doesn't understand it. So, with that, you have some insight that not all Moslems feel the way those in that particular region feel.

kiki_doki · Dec 1, 2007, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by s_cianci

It's a teddy bear for crying out loud ; a bunch of foam stuffing covered with artificial fur!! And Mohammed is just a name for goodness sake! Come on now ; if this isn't insanity then I don't know what is! Sorry, but at this point any respect or empathy I may have had for Islam just went right out the window!

Well I don't think that that makes you very open minded, I have clearly stated that I (as a muslim)dont agree with what's happening and that many other muslims think the same. This question was started as a means of getting insight into what others thought! I don't think that ignorance is the best route to answering this or the best comment to have left here... Its not a free for all for bigots to come and feel free to attack... check yourself!As an adult I would expect you to have the ability to decipher between ALL muslims and the minority of muslims in Sudan... they're not one in the same!! Its like saying we're all suicide bombers... Please stop the hate man its not cool!! And I for one do not require your empathy!

templelane · Dec 1, 2007, 09:23 AM

The teacher in question said herself she did not want to become a pillar for right wing propaganda against muslims and muslim countries.

That being said I would be outside the Sudanese embassy protesting if I lived closer. Two muslim peers have been sent to negotiate her release so that the country doesn't feel it is bowing to the British government but offering 'mercy' instead.

I'm just glad I don't live there.

charlotte234s · Dec 1, 2007, 01:28 PM

I kind of have to agree with s_cianci, people who freak out over trivial things like this are insane, and they give islam a bad name, and people lose more and more respect for it because of these crazies, which is unfortunate because I know that not ever muslim is a radical extremist. It's kind of like when very religious christian people do hypocritical things and then we are all mocking them for being "religious" and still doing terrible things. It's unfortunate.

Either way, people need to get over the teddy bear, as stated before, it's a piece of foam and cotton. It's insane they want to punish her for it. We don't go around beheading people and giving them 40 lashes for naming their dog Jesus. It's time to grow up.

michealb · Dec 1, 2007, 02:30 PM

The reason a teddy bear can't be name Mohammed is because the teddy bear is then considered an idol to Mohammed which is against the laws of islam. I know this and I'm not teaching in a muslim country and I'm not muslim. Why the teacher didn't know any better is beyond me. If I was going to be teaching in a muslim country in Sudan no less where a genocide is taking place I would know the law very well. She broke the law the country she is in. Whether we consider it silly or not isn't really an issue. It now becomes an issue of are non-muslims above the laws of the country they are in and if so then should muslims respect the laws of the countries that they are in if they are non muslim countries?

charlotte234s · Dec 1, 2007, 02:32 PM

True, michaelb, I think the real problem in countries like that is that religion shouldn't influence politics, it causes too many problems.

kiki_doki · Dec 1, 2007, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by michealb

The reason a teddy bear can't be name Mohammed is because the teddy bear is then considered an idol to Mohammed which is against the laws of islam. I know this and I'm not teaching in a muslim country and I'm not muslim. Why the teacher didn't know any better is beyond me. If I was going to be teaching in a muslim country in Sudan no less where a genocide is taking place I would know the law very well. She broke the law the country she is in. Whether we consider it silly or not isn't really an issue. It now becomes an issue of are non-muslims above the laws of the country they are in and if so then should muslims respect the laws of the countries that they are in if they are non muslim countries?

You make a great point but... I know that ignorance is no plea but a friend an I were talikng about this today and about the letter she had sent out to the parents advising them of the bears presence etc and we came to the conclusion (its not founded merely logical) that in order for her to write that letter she had to first get it translated and then phototcopied, now during these processes someone at the school had to have read the letter and realised what a big mistake she was about to make... why didn't they act? My friend did agree that going to another country should usually have its preparation... ie the "how not to offend people in the country you are visiting" handbook... and if she still wasn't sure then she should have asked for advise!

charlotte234s · Dec 1, 2007, 03:01 PM

That's true, kiki, why didn't anyone else act?

Also, if there are such strict rules about this, why didn't the children know better, too?

It's just weird.

kiki_doki · Dec 1, 2007, 03:28 PM

Well you see this is the problem with it, I don't think it is as cut and dry... I really do think it was a genuine mistake (on the teachers part and she probably thought it was OK because the people who translated the letter didn't mention anything! ) hence why I think its been taken a bit too far. It should have stopped before even leaving the school. I think her heart was in the right place, she wanted the children to bond with her and she let them name it... She probably thought she was being 'inclusive' by allowing them to do so... instead of calling him Fred... you know?