[orange]

I'm writing this question for a friend of mine who has a 3 year old son. She is at her wit's end with his tantrums and is starting to wonder if they are normal or not. Since I'm not a mother yet I don't feel I have enough experience to judge that, but maybe someone here has an opinion? Here are a couple of examples of his tantrums:

The other day he discovered that the car has overhead lights on the inside of it. He loves lights so he wanted to turn them on and off, on and off. My friend decided to not let him do it at all, because it drains the battery. Well he had one of his tantrums and screamed and screamed and kept trying to reach the lights. He almost managed to get himself out of his car seat a couple of times (this was going on while my friend was driving!). She also has a 6 month old baby, and so when they reached home finally, she had to take the baby and the groceries in the house first, because the 3 year old refused to leave the car and continued screaming. Then she had to force him out of the car, and he got away from her and ran back to the car several times before she finally had to literally drag him into the house, kicking and screaming. Once in the house he continued to scream and cry for a long time. All together the tantrum lasted about 90 minutes. He has other tantrums like this several times a week. He has even lay down in the middle of the street to have a tantrum, and she's had to drag him to get him to the other side of the street before the light changes. All this with her 6 month old in tow. She gets very little help from her husband, who is extremely lazy.

Anyway basically just wondering if tantrums to this extent are normal with some kids. Thanks.

[jduke44]

Welcome to the 3 yr old world. You may find this out when your soon to be becomes 3 or even 2 for that matter. I have a 2 yr old and a 9month old. Thankfully my 2 yr old has not gotten that bad but he has been known to throw himself down on the floor so you have to drag him. His favorite thing is wanting his cup of water. Unfortunately, I don't have anything solid for thme to try but just that they can't necessarily givein. Sometimes the parents tends to give in too much and then the child will continue to test the boundaries. I have given in on an occasion to not deal with the crying because I think you do have to pick your battles. However, on matters like this that couple needs to go to drastci measures if he has been getting out of his car seat while she is driving, that is pretty bad. I hope someone else may have things to try that might have hlped him but to answer your question, I would say it is normal, but not tolerable behavior.

[Fr_Chuck]

The first line of defense is called spanking, not beating, but putting your hand hard to their rear several times and telling them they have a reason to cry

Raised 5 though those years. He will do it, if he is not stopped,

One teaching that I don't approve of is to allow him to throw his fit and then explain why he is not getting his way. Bull, he does not care why, he just wants


But after a few times he learns that it is not worth it.

[orange]

Thanks jduke and Fr Chuck. Yikes I had no idea how common this was. I guess I'll find out soon enough though, lucky me!! :P

I feel like a meanie, but my inclination is to agree with Fr Chuck. I would want to spank in this case... the temptation would be VERY strong! The other day I was visiting with my friend and her son got the idea that sitting on his baby brother's head would be fun. So he kept trying, and my friend kept pulling him off, at LEAST 30 times (! ), and him screaming the whole time. He's not my kid obviously, but I really wanted to spank him for that! She uses time-outs but they don't work on him because he won't stay in time-out. He just follows her around screaming and hitting her. She has to force him back into his time out chair over and over again. My friend has spanked her son before, once or twice only, and she says it works, but she feels very guilty doing it. So she's not doing it anymore. I think I would also feel guilty, and wonder if I was doing something wrong, but like I said I will very strongly want to if my kid behaves this way, and he didn't have some organic brain problem.

[Fr_Chuck]

First I will say that many, many, many people intoday society will disagree with me, but heck that is not new.


But never, never ( did I say never) spank a child when you are mad. Always do it in love, and be sure to hung and let the child know you love them not too long after something happens.

And yes, it is very common almost all kids believe showing their tail ( a southern expression) will make them get their way.

But I will always add, there are some kids that are different from others and not all parents are good being tough.

I always laught, our youngest is 5, I have not spanked him more than 2 or 3 times ever, all I have to do is raise my voice and he will act like I have killed him. My wife could spank him till he turns blue ( not that he does) and it has little effect. Beats me why, subborn is my guess.

[Dr D]

Just like my 10 pound Yorkie has trained me to give him a chicken jerky treat when he has returned to me an item that he has stolen from the counter; whether a pen, eyeglasses, or TV remote; children train adults to get their way. When my grandson was about 5, he threw a tantrum while in my care. I CALMLY informed him that I and my guests didn't want to listen to his outburst and that he could scream till the cows came home, in the back bedroom. Over the next 45 min he tried to exit the room to continue his tirade. Each time I CALMLY escorted him back in, and informed that he wasn't done screaming yet. A gentle swat on the butt would reinforce the point. That was his last tantrum in my home (with me). When visiting my daughter, I would listen to her scream at the two kids to quit fighting etc etc. My suggestions to her fell on deaf ears. CONSISTENCY and CALM, I believe is the key.

One might ask why my daughter became an adult screamer. It is because I was not home much; working and going to school, followed by 70+ hr workweeks at Generous Motors, in my misguided efforts to be a success. My advice is: spend time with your kids; you only have them for a little while.

[orange]

That makes sense to me, Fr Chuck. But then I think, when the kid is freaking out so much, its very hard to NOT be angry or at least very frustrated. But if you waited until you weren't angry anymore, then it would be too late, cause the kid would be done with their tantrum, right? And it seems wrong to spank them when they're not doing anything anymore, especially if they're very young.

I don't know, I'm just confused about what to do with my own child I guess. I've always thought I would never spank, but then seeing what a holy terror this kid is, to the point of placing himself in danger, not to mention causing huge scenes in public, spanking sounds good!

[orange]

Just like my 10 pound Yorkie has trained me to give him a chicken jerky treat when he has returned to me an item that he has stolen from the counter; whether a pen, eyeglasses, or TV remote; children train adults to get their way. When my grandson was about 5, he threw a tantrum while in my care. I CALMLY informed him that I and my guests didn't want to listen to his outburst and that he could scream till the cows came home, in the back bedroom. Over the next 45 min he tried to exit the room to continue his tirade. Each time I CALMLY escorted him back in, and informed that he wasn't done screaming yet. A gentle swat on the butt would reinforce the point. That was his last tantrum in my home (with me). When visiting my daughter, I would listen to her scream at the two kids to quit fighting etc etc. My suggestions to her fell on deaf ears. CONSISTENCY and CALM, I believe is the key.

Actually my friend is quite calm, more calm than what I would be, that's for sure!! I'm not a person who yells at all, even when I'm angry or arguing, but I could see myself getting really fed up nonetheless! Anyway, she does pretty much what you've described. The only difference is, her child doesn't seem to learn the way your grandson did. He keeps having the tantrums over and over and over and this has been going on for about a year. That's partially why we're wondering if it's normal or if there's something wrong with him. In all that time he just hasn't learned a thing. Yet in other respects he is very bright. I told her she should write Dr. Phil haha but her husband doesn't want her to!

Anyway thanks for your response, I appreciate it!

[Dr D]

She should probably take him to a pediatrician or other medical counsel in order to rule out any physiological cause for the behavior, e.g.. Hyperactivity, autism etc. I wish her the best of luck. Unfortunately kids don't come:confused: with instruction manuals

[Fr_Chuck]

Please be very careful of people calling out hyperactivity, it is over used, over medicated. Most are just regular kids that parents no long wish to use proper disipline with.

I am not saying it can't exist, just that often it may more deal with control issues of the child, diet and/or allergies.



I am one of those people you do not want to have seat next to on a bus, be in line at walmart or so on with kids that are obviously running the house. I just like I do here will give you may opinion of the situation.

Yea, I really know how to make friends and influence people.
But on the other hand, wearing the clergy collar most of the time, I get by with a little more than most

[jduke44]

I totally agree with Chuck. I was thinking, oooh are you going ot get some nasty posts. I was thinking as I was reading that you should never hit a child when you are angry, then I saw it in your next post. I don't think enough parents do spank their children. When I spank my 2 yr old it is to show him that he needs to change his behavior.

Orange, women have a certain instinct about bringing up a child. You will not know everything, so don't pretend to know everything. The other thing, every child is different, so if you get advice from anyone whether it is here or family or whomever, I would suggest you not to take it as set in stone. Try it, if it doesn't work, modify the correction or figure out a new way. As Dr D says, kids don't come with instruction manuals :( (darn) but then again life doesn't either, well, sort of. I'm sure I could write the lngth of a book on this so I will shut up now. :p

[jduke44]

Please be very careful of people calling out hyperactivity, it is over used, over medicated. Most are just regular kids that parents no long wish to use proper disipline with.

I am not saying it can't exist, just that often it may more deal with control issues of the child, diet and/or allergies.



I am one of those people you do not want to have seat next to on a bus, be in line at walmart or so on with kids that are obviously running the house. I just like I do here will give you may opinion of the situation.

Yea, I really know how to make friends and influence people.
But on the other hand, wearing the clergy collar most of the time, I get by with alittle more than most

Again totally agree. I think my child would be considered hyperactive. He's 2 come on, of course he is. His pedetrician is pretty good and has not forced thar issue. I heard recently some good "studies" about ADD and ADHD that only a very small percentage of children have this and like Chuck has said can be modified with diet and such.

[CaptainForest]

You people scare me. How you can ever justify spanking a helpless child is beyond me.

Negative enough for you Fr Chuck?

Anyway,

Orange, I was in the same situation as this 3 year old. My mother gave birth to a new baby, spent all this time with the new baby, and I acted out. At that age, kids express their feelings through yelling and screaming, not words.

Your friend should have Daddy baby sit 6 month old baby once a week and Mommy and 3 yr old should go out and spend the day together. It is important for the 3 yr old to realize that Mommy is still around and still cares and loves him. Trust me, I know.

And now to the spanking issue...
HOW COULD YOU? I think I turned out OK, and I was never spanked. Here is an alternative idea to spanking. What does the 3 yr old like? Ice cream for example? Well, that night, after 3yr old was a brat in the car, Mommy and Daddy should have had ice cream for desert but not allowed 3yr old to have any. And tell him the reason he doesn't get any is because he didn't listen to Mommy in the car.

There are many different approaches but spanking should never be an option. That's in essence telling your kids its okay to hit someone when they do something you don't like.

[orange]

Errr, now I feel like a flake, because I actually agree with parts of what everyone has said, including you, CaptainForrest! I don't want to spank and never had any intention of doing so ever... but then I get this experience with my friend's kid and he is just sooo out of control. Like not just a bad tantrum every once in a while but practically every day and sometimes several times a day! Blah. I guess I'm just feeling a bit scared now because what will I do if I have the same problem with my baby.

I have a lot of patience and although I've said here that I want to spank my friend's kid, I don't think I ever would. Even more so with my own child. After all I never spank my dog and cat, and they've both been pretty annoying at times. Anyway this is all really good to think about now, before I have the child. I can make plans and educate myself, listen to what others say, and as you said jduke, I will hopefully have some natural inclinations about how to care for my baby... actually I think I definitely will, because apparently I'm good with children.

CaptainForrest, I really like your suggestion of having Daddy babysitting once a week, but unfortunately that won't be happening in my friend's case. Her husband is one of the laziest men I've ever met. Since the 3 year old has been born, he has babysat a total of about 2-3 times. My friend can't even leave the kids alone when she showers because her husband complains. She doesn't want to leave them alone with him anyway because he has a bad temper and tends to slap the 3 year old in the face or wherever if the child gets in his way. Luckily MY fiancé is not anything like this... he's looking forward to taking care of the baby when he's not at work.

I think I just answered my own question LOL. After typing all of that, I think one of the reasons the little boy acts out is because of the way his father is. And maybe he wants attention from his father too! But I can't imagine him changing... like I said he is very lazy and very selfish too!

Anyway thanks for your comments!

[CaptainForest]

CaptainForrest, I really like your suggestion of having Daddy babysitting once a week, but unfortunately that won't be happening in my friend's case. Her husband is one of the laziest men I've ever met. Since the 3 year old has been born, he has babysat a total of about 2-3 times. My friend can't even leave the kids alone when she showers because her husband complains. She doesn't want to leave them alone with him anyways because he has a bad temper and tends to slap the 3 year old in the face or wherever if the child gets in his way.

Wow, so why is she with this guy then? He doesn't sound like a good father and perhaps not a good husband? But I might be poking my noise into areas I shouldn't be...

[orange]

Ugh well that's a really good question!! Why the $%#^ is she with him?? I've been wondering that myself for years. She always complains about him too, and says she's going to leave him, but never does. The stupid part is, she's a hard worker, has a really nice personality, and physically she's absolutely gorgeous. Guys are always looking at her, to the point where it makes me jealous, haha. But my point is, she could have any guy she wanted. Yet she's been with this guy for nearly 10 years now, a long time before she ever had kids with him. I've given up on trying to convince her to leave though. It bothered me for a long time since we are foster sisters, but I had to let it go and I just try to be supportive now, and hope she might have the courage to leave at some point...

[jduke44]

Orange, I was in the same situation as this 3 year old. My mother gave birth to a new baby, spent all this time with the new baby, and I acted out. At that age, kids express their feelings through yelling and screaming, not words.

Your friend should have Daddy baby sit 6 month old baby once a week and Mommy and 3 yr old should go out and spend the day together. It is important for the 3 yr old to realize that Mommy is still around and still cares and loves him. Trust me, I know.

I agree, this is one of the things I forgot to mention in my post. My 2yr old acts out because he thinks we give too much attention to our 10 month old. Atcually, I think it is the opposite but he doesn't see this.

Your friend should have Daddy baby sit 6 month old baby once a week and Mommy and 3 yr old should go out and spend the day together. It is important for the 3 yr old to realize that Mommy is still around and still cares and loves him. Trust me, I know.

Again, I agree. I will admit, I don't take my 10 month old as much as I should. One of the reasons is because when he was fully breastfeeding it was hard to find a chunk of time to take him anywhere. This will benefit in 2 ways, it will show the attention to the 3yr old as CaptainForest has mentioned and also will possibly help the younger one to not be so attached to mommy (I know because that is how my 10 month old is).

And now to the spanking issue...
HOW COULD YOU? I think I turned out OK, and I was never spanked. Here is an alternative idea to spanking. What does the 3 yr old like? Ice cream for example? Well, that night, after 3yr old was a brat in the car, Mommy and Daddy should have had ice cream for desert but not allowed 3yr old to have any. And tell him the reason he doesn't get any is because he didn't listen to Mommy in the car.

There are many different approaches but spanking should never be an option. That's in essence telling your kids its okay to hit someone when they do something you don't like.

I agree there are many different approaches to discipline. I think a quick spank on the butt is one of them. I don't go around spanking my child whenever I get the chance and I never hit him in the face. I use spanking as a method to get the boys attention when he has blatently disobeyed me and looks at me and snickers. I will admit, I do hit him when I am angry, but before I hit him I let him know why I am spanking and that way it lets me cool down so that I won't spank him too hard and regret it. What works for some, may or may not work for others. I don't think (this is my opinion for my child) waiting till later to tempt him with icecream because children have a short attention span and may not get the full grasp of what he did earlier.

She doesn't want to leave them alone with him anyway because he has a bad temper and tends to slap the 3 year old in the face or wherever if the child gets in his way.

I think you are right about the father hitting the child. There are probably a lot of reasons this is happening. Hopefully, the mother and father can find a solution.

[CaptainForest]

I don't think (this is my opinion for my child) waiting till later to tempt him with icecream b/c children have a short attention span and may not get the full grasp of what he did earlier.

One thing is that WHEN the child is misbehaving, you tell him won't get any ice cream for desert that night. Then that night, you follow through with it.

[Fr_Chuck]

You people scare me. How you can ever justify spanking a helpless child is beyond me.

Negative enough for you Fr Chuck?

Anyways,

Orange, I was in the same situation as this 3 year old. My mother gave birth to a new baby, spent all this time with the new baby, and I acted out. At that age, kids express their feelings through yelling and screaming, not words.



There are many different approaches but spanking should never be an option. Thats in essence telling your kids its okay to hit someone when they do something you dont like.

Well lets say it was used for years and years and it works. Sadly today people who want to change things that work come up with ideas that normally have little real effect. I guess in general the treat for behavior like training a dog can work to a point but negative behaior can be a sign they want a boundy, and they are looking for someone to set those boundies. And giving them a treat latter, or not giving them something latter has little effect, they can not match the two events.
A quick swat is not only very effective, but until this last generation it was the preferred method.

Scared, I guess yes, scared that this new sillyness being taught will be found to be wrong and that the old ways are still the best.

[CaptainForest]

Scared, I guess yes, scared that this new sillyness being taught will be found to be wrong and that the old ways are still the best.

This "new sillyness being taught" as you say, is not silly at all. It has been going on for a while, with a lot of good results.

Society changes over time, we no longer have legal retribution killings for example. We now have abortion, same sex marriage, legal prostitution.

Spanking teaches the wrong moral values to kids, hence why more and more don't do it these days.