[inthebox]

UPDATE 2-US clout down, risks up by 2025 -intel outlook | Currencies | Reuters

China and India, following a "state capitalism" economic model, were likely to join the United States atop a multipolar world and compete for influence, the report said.

I thought that was an interesting comment, given that it looks like the US government is becoming more socialistic. [ banks, auto makers? heathcare? ]. After all, the liberals and the lefties hate capitalism and US power.

Is that Obama's and congress' plan to bring about the decline of the US?

[answermyquery]

Scared about socialism in America because of Obama? Social Security, welfare, etc are forms of socialism. Yes, US is capitalism anyhow but for a while US is practicing Fascism especially in the Bush admistration and even Clinton admistration. I think its time for capitalism with moderate socialism.

[inthebox]

What is capitalism with moderate socialism?

Yes since the new deal, then with medicare this country has started on the road to socialism.

We are trillions in debt and medicare, social security obligations will increase to the point of taking up 15% of gdp as the baby boomers hit their 70s and 80s.


Now they have bought the banks and possible the big three.

Where is the hope in all of this?


Ten Reasons Why the Auto Bailout Is a Bad Idea

Bailouts have been tried in the auto industry, and they don't work. In the 1970s, Britain's Leyland hit the skids, hurt by slipping quality in its vehicles and imports from Germany and Japan. Sound familiar? Leyland, which made MGs, Jaguars and mass-market cars, accounted for 36 percent of the UK market. So the government sunk in $16.5 billion to keep it afloat. The result? Unless you're a car buff, you've probably never heard of Leyland, because it no longer exists

[tomder55]

This “report” is a reflection of what all but a few of the elites actually think and want.
History shows great powers ultimately do of course decline .But I've been reading about the inevidible US decline since the 1960s .

I note that the EU called for tax breaks for industry this week. Gordon Brown is considering dropping the rate of their VAT (sales)tax. Brown say he plans to go to Brussels next month to appeal for EU-wide action on cutting taxes.Already most of Europe has a lower Capital gains tax than the US does.

THE Chinese government has announced a series of tax cuts aimed at helping the country's textile industry through the global financial crisis.

Tyler Cowen an economics professor at George Mason writes in the NY Slimes that raising taxes as Obama proposed in the campaign would be one of the worse things he could do during an economic downturn.
Since Obama is reading 2 books on Roosevelt he should consider the fact that Roosevelt's and Hoover's tax increases during the depression made it worse.

The New Deal's legacy of public works programs has given many people the impression that it was a time of expansionary fiscal policy, but that isn't quite right. Government spending went up considerably, but taxes rose, too. Under President Herbert Hoover and continuing with Roosevelt, the federal government increased income taxes, excise taxes, inheritance taxes, corporate income taxes, holding company taxes and “excess profits” taxes.

When all of these tax increases are taken into account, New Deal fiscal policy didn't do much to promote recovery. Today, a tax cut for the middle class is a good idea — and the case for repealing the Bush tax cuts for higher-income earners is weaker than it may have seemed a year or two ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/bu...l?ref=business

If America is indeed in decline ;it is due to it's long term drift towards socialism.

[excon]

Afterall, the liberals and the lefties hate capitalism and US power......Is that Obama's and congress' plan to bring about the decline of the US?

Hello in:

I don't know about you, but I saw the REPUBLICAN president, the dufus in chief, spend us into the poor house, and grow the government BIGGER than ever before.

He DID this while his REPUBLICAN friends where in charge of congress - hell, they even helped spend like a drunken sailor...

And, when the crap hit the fan, the REPUBLICAN secretary of the treasury, is GIVING away close to a trillion of your $$$'s to his buddies in the banks.

So, for you to blame Democrats or Obama is just plain ridiculous.

excon

[inthebox]

This “report” is a reflection of what all but a few of the elites actually think and want.
History shows great powers ultimately do of course decline .But I've been reading about the inevidible US decline since the 1960s .

I note that the EU called for tax breaks for industry this week. Gordon Brown is considering dropping the rate of their VAT (sales)tax. Brown say he plans to go to Brussels next month to appeal for EU-wide action on cutting taxes.Already most of Europe has a lower Capital gains tax than the US does.

THE Chinese government has announced a series of tax cuts aimed at helping the country's textile industry through the global financial crisis.

Tyler Cowen an economics professor at George Mason writes in the NY Slimes that raising taxes as Obama proposed in the campaign would be one of the worse things he could do during an economic downturn.
Since Obama is reading 2 books on Roosevelt he should consider the fact that Roosevelt's and Hoover's tax increases during the depression made it worse.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/bu...l?ref=business

If America is indeed in decline ;it is due to it's long term drift towards socialism.

Thanks Tom.

While other countries try to raise there standard of living, the liberals and the left want more taxes and government handouts, not realizing the long term costs.

[inthebox]

Hello in:

I dunno about you, but I saw the REPUBLICAN president, the dufus in chief, spend us into the poor house, and grow the government BIGGER than ever before.

He DID this while his REPUBLICAN friends where in charge of congress - hell, they even helped spend like a drunken sailor...

And, when the crap hit the fan, the REPUBLICAN secretary of the treasury, is GIVING away close to a trillion of your $$$'s to his buddies in the banks.

So, for you to blame Democrats or Obama is just plain ridiculous.

excon

Ex

Agree, Bush and the congress, controlled by the Republicans spent like crazy. The Democrats just obstructed regulating the gses Fannie and Freddie that are at the heart of this mess. ;)


And that is part of the point:


For Fannie and Freddie, folks like Rham and Raines made private sector profits, just like the big 3 auto execs, and now they all expect to socialize the losses to the US taxpayor:(

[Galveston1]

Ex, how do you say the Republicans gave all that money to the failing banks? The Democrats had to do everything they could to bring recalitrant Republicans to vote for that boondoggle.

It looks like a bad idea getting worse, but you can't blame it on the Republican congressmen exclusively.

[excon]

The Democrats just obstructed regulating the gses Fannie and Freddie that are at the heart of this mess. ;) ...And that is part of the point:(

Hello in:

That ISN'T the point. IF it was just Fannie and Freddie failing, then it would have caused a few bank failures... Big deal...

Again, you shouldn't believe everything Limprod says.

But THIS meltdown is due to OTC derivitaves and credit swaps. THOSE were products that were invented since 2000 due to an UNREGULATED market. These entities were sold once before, but were made illegal because they caused disruption. In 2000, your former Republican Senator Phill Gramm, DEREGULATED them.

It's THOSE things that are clogging the credit markets. We STILL don't kow how much of this worthless paper is out there. IT's in the TRILLIONS. THIS is a REPUBLICAN lead meltdown - pure and simple.

excon

[tomder55]

But THIS meltdown is due to OTC derivitaves and credit swaps. THOSE were products that were invented since 2000 due to an UNREGULATED market. These entities were sold once before, but were made illegal because they caused disruption. In 2000, your former Republican Senator Phill Gramm, DEREGULATED them.

Yup you keep on saying that but it was clearly an issue of :which came first ? Strapped with bad loans they were forced to issue ,the financial institutions came up with clever ways to bundle them and sell them on the market . Whether there should've been tighter control of them is not an issue. But to blame them on one party is absurd.

The fact is that the growth of OTC Derivitives preceded the Bush Adm. As early as 1994 the 90s were being called the "decade of the derivitives "($12.1 trillion in domestic derivitives and $5.5 trillion in foreign exchange by the end of 1993.) .(page 198 'A Financial History of the United States ')

The legislation by Gramm was the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000(CFMA) Although his name is the name most associatiated with the bill ,it was in fact bi-partisan with Democrat Senators Tom Harkin and Tim Johnson co-sponsors . The Senate passed the bill unanimously(there were Democrats in the Senate including all the ususal suspects) .
It was passed into law before President Bush was sworn in. President Clinton signed it into Public Law (106-554) on December 21, 2000.
Of course now they are shocked just shocked that this was happening .

[excon]

But to blame them on one party is absurd.

Hello again, tom:

I don't disagree. When things are flying high, everybody's thrilled. When things go into the toilet, everybody's pointing fingers. I'm no different. I just don't like Phil Gramm.

excon