[dcsicking]

I live in a single story, 45 year old, concrete slab foundation home on the Gulf Coast. My problem is that the shower drain P trap, located in/under the slab appears to be leaking. After showering, the level in the drain/P trap falls and the loop seal is lost. The P trap appears to be approximately 8 inches below the shower floor. This causes/allows 1) Roaches to crawl up through the drain from the septic line into the shower. Some nights 10 or more roaches will appear in the shower. My wife hates this. 2) Loud drain flow sounds emanating when a commode is flushed.

The shower continues to drain well. However these roaches are annoying. A wash cloth sprayed with roach spray placed over the drain keeps them at bay. I suspect a small amount of shower water is leaking out of the P trap into the soil below the slab. I think I may have caused the leak by using bleach mixture to clean mold from the shower wall for 20 years. I believe the metal drain/trap was attacked by the standing bleach after each cleaning. Surprisingly, we do not have bad odors emanating from the drain.

My questions are:

1) Is it possible to repair the P trap without tearing up the shower floor and concrete below? The shower is tile over concrete slab and tile over sheet rock on the walls.

2) Have you heard of anyone using a belzona type product applied with flexible brush to patch the metal drain/P trap? Is there a kit available?

3) Do you know of a kit whereby a flexible drain liner could be inserted into the drain pipe through the P trap and sealed at the shower floor for repair? I am trying to avoid the $ thousands it will take to replace the drain piping, shower pan, and tile.

4) If I continue to use the shower, do I risk additional damage to the house, such as foundation damage due to leaking water?

[speedball1]

Greetings from Sarasota,

Loud drain flow sounds emanating when a commode is flushed.

Would you say that these "loud noises" are gurgles? I don't think it';s your "P" trap or your drain and I've never heard of bleach eating up a metal drain. Let's check and see.
Fill the trap with water and have someone shine a light down there when you flush a toilet. Did that affect the trap seal level?" Did the water in the trap move? Let me know, Tom

[dcsicking]

Greetings from Sarasota,

Would you say that these "loud noises" are gurgles? I don't think it';s your "P" trap or your drain and I've never heard of bleach eating up a metal drain. Let's check and see.
Fill the trap with water and have someone shine a light down there will you flush a toilet. Did that affect the trap seal level?" Did the water in the trap move? Let me know, Tom

Response from dcsicking: No I would not say the noises are gurgles. It is more like loud rushing noises. It is a steady hi velocity flow noise that stops as all the water passes. Also, if I have just showered and the P trap is full, then flushing of the commode is not heard through the shower drain.

I have done this much already. I filled the P trap and measured level in the drain. I then waited several hours and measured the level in the drain line again. It had fallen by a couple of inches. That is why I suspect the P trap slowly drains allowing for falling level. Also with no level in P trap that allows easy access for roaches living in the septic line, I think.

Your suggestion to test seal water level while flushing a commode is good. However, I am at work now and cannot do this. I will try it when I get home tonight and will respond again.

This forum is great! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me, a complete stranger.

[speedball1]

This forum is great! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me, a complete stranger.

When you log on to AMHD you're no longer a strainger.
You have a force of experts just waiting to help.
Let me know about the trap seal. Something's lowering the seal and I want to know what. Regards. Tom, Tom

[dcsicking]

When you log on to AMHD you're no longer a strainger.
You have a force of experts just waiting to help.
Let me know about the trap seal. Something's lowering the seal and I wanna know what. Regards. tom, Tom

Response from dcsicking: I did as you asked and observed the following.

1. Before flusing any toilets I measured the level again in the drain. The depth of the drain is 14 inches. Water was standing at 1.5 inches (in the 14 inch drain)prior to any flushing. No one showered since this morning.

2. I then flushed the toilet in the same bathroom. The level rippled a little. It appeared that air was rushing over the top of the water causing rippling, definitely was not bubbling through the water.

3. I then flushed (rather had my wife to) the toilet in the adjacent bathroom. I saw similar results as air seemd to rush over the surface causing a slight rippling effect.

4. Then I ran the shower for a bit to fill the trap. I then measured a level of 4 inches in the drain. ( up from 1.5 inches)

5. I then had my wife flush the toilet in the same bathroom. The surface did not riple this time. The water level rose and fell (breathed) ever so slightly. The level may have risen and fell for a few seconds of 1/8 to 1/4 inch. No bubbling this time either. This breathing effect was very slight.

6. I then repeated the process for the toilet in the adjacent bathroom and got similar results.

It appears to me that with low level in the trap air moves through the "P" trap above the water and whispers accros the surface creating a ripple effect.

With normal level in the trap, there is no air across the surface, but the entire water level rises and falls a bit with slightly increased air pressure in the septic line due to rushing water below. I.E as the water runs down the septic line air will be rushing back up to fill the space left by the water causng a slight increase in air pressure and the breathing effect.

This is my understanding. I want to know what you think?

Dan Sicking

[speedball1]

Some fluctuations normal. The vent prevents suctioning of the trap seal.

Then I ran the shower for a bit to fill the trap. I then measured a level of 4 inches in the drain. ( up from 1.5 inches)

Did the water drain down from the 4 inches back to 1 1/2"? 4 inches is way too high in the trap. The average trap seal runs between 1 and 2 inches. Something's not draining right. Something's preventing the shower from draining correctly. Answer my question about the trap seal. Does the 4" eventually drain out leaving a 1 1/2" seal?
Back to you, Tom

[dcsicking]

Some fluctuations normal. The vent prevents suctioning of the trap seal.
Did the water drain down from the 4 inches back to 1 1/2"? 4 inches is way too high in the trap. The average trap seal runs between 1 and 2 inches. Something's not draining right. Something's preventing the shower from draining correctly. Answer my question about the trap seal. Does the 4" eventually drain out leaving a 1 1/2" seal?
Back to you, Tom

Response from dcsicking:

The level does drain down slowly. I do not know how long it takes to drain down the "P" trap. Yesterday my wife showered at approximately 6 AM. The level should have been 4" after her shower. By 8 PM last night the level fell to 1.5". After the refill process last night I checked the level twice, about 15 minutes apart. The level stayed at 4" over the 15 minute period. So it must take awhile for the level to drop from 4" to 1.5". I think I can safely say that it takes hours to drain the level back to 1.5" or lower.

By the way, I did not hear the rushing sound last night when flushing the commodes, not with level at either height. If we do not shower for a couple of days then the level must fall even further, possibly emptying the trap, because that is when the flushing noise becomes very loud.

Thanks for your help!

Dan

[speedball1]

If we do not shower for a couple of days then the level must fall even further, possibly emptying the trap, because that is when the flushing noise becomes very loud.

That concerns me. It sounds like the trap's leaking from the bell of the "U" bend. This would mean taking up the shower floor and I'm not ready to suggest that.
Let's be very sure about this. Don't use the shower for a few days and monitor the trap level day by day. I want to see if the trap will go completely dry. Good luck and let me know, Tom

[dcsicking]

We have company this week. I cannot secure the shower until they leave. I will begin the process of securing shower and measuring P trap level next Tuesday.

Thanks!

Dan

[speedball1]

Let me know how you make out. Good luck, Tom

[dcsicking]

Hello again. I just completed my "do not use" test of the shower. Recall that we are both concerned that the P-Trap may be slowly leaking and draining dry, allowing roaches to crawl up from the drain line and causing loud drain noises when an adjacent commode is flushed. The test consisted of stop using the shower for days and intermittently measure P-trap liquid level. Here are the results.

Time since shower last used and P-Trap Level

0 hours ---------------------------------4.5"
12 hours---------------------------------1.5"
24 hours--------------------------------0.25"
36 hours--------------------------------0.0" wet
48 hours--------------------------------0.0" dry

At 36 hours I could not wet the bottom of my 3/8 inch dowel rod that I used for a measuring stick. However I could see a small bit of water in the bottom of the P-Trap. At 48 hours the P-Trap was completely dry. Also with the P-trap dry or almost dry, flushing noises from the adjacent commode were very loud in the drain. Also a couple of roaches crawled up through the drain.

What do you think?

[speedball1]

I really hate to tell you this but it sounds like the trap has developed a crack in the base of the U bend allowing the trap seal to seep out and I know of nothing that you can put down there to repair it with. Unless some of the other experts can come up with a better solution then replacing the trap about the only thing you ban do is remove the tile and mortar and take up the slabto replace the trap.

1) Is it possible to repair the P trap without tearing up the shower floor and concrete below? The shower is tile over concrete slab and tile over sheet rock on the walls.

I don't think so!

2) Have you heard of anyone using a belzona type product applied with flexible brush to patch the metal drain/P trap? Is there a kit available?

I looked over their web site and it seems that they offer commercial applications.
You haven't told us what your trap's made of. PVC, ABS or cast iron?

3) Do you know of a kit whereby a flexible drain liner could be inserted into the drain pipe through the P trap and sealed at the shower floor for repair?

Google could find no trap liner repair kit and I never heard of one. Yours is not a common complaint. Was a rod or object jammed down the drain causing a crack in the bell of the trap?
I'd duct tape the drain until repairs could be made. Good luck, tom

[dcsicking]

I have not said what the trap is made of. However, being 50 years old and based on appearance of the drain line I am confident it is cast iron. I have found some flexible plumbing brushes on brushetechbrushes.com. Prior to tearing out the shower I plan on attempting repair by cleaning the P-Trap with a flexile brush. Then let it dry completely. Finally apply some liquid Belzona or equivalent with the flexible brush. I may put on two coats. I believe that there will be enough cast iron remaining for the Belzona to attach to and seal the crack. I may be able to fix this for $50 vice several thousand dollars to tear out the shower.

As I stated earlier I think I caused the leak myself via use of a strong bleach mixture that I use to fight mold in the shower. I spray a 50% bleach mixture on the walls and floor. It is very effective to remove mold which is aggressive in the South Texas humidity. I've been doing this every couple weeks for almost 20 years. I believe the bleach runs into the drain and stands. I do not immediately rinse the shower with clean water. I let it stand until the next shower to kill the mold better. Cast iron is very susceptible to corrosion when in contact with bleach. Over the years the P-Trap must have corroded through wall.

I will let you know if this works.

How can I compensate you for your advice? I am not a member of PayPal.

Thanks for all of your time!

Dan

[speedball1]

While I'm on social security and can use the $ It's not necessary to pay me. Your thanks are plenty. Good luck and let me know. Tom

[dcsicking]

Speedball1,

Just wanted to let you know that the repair of the corroded shower p-trap worked. I used JB Weld rather than Belzona. I applied 3 packages worth using a snake with a brush that I got from Turbosnake.com. The P-trap remains full now and roaches do not crawl into the shower via the drain.

Thanks for your advice.

Dan Sicking

[speedball1]

Thanks for the update just glad you got fixed up. Good luck, tom