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Ultra Member
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Jun 29, 2021, 12:26 AM
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In The Beginning There Was Genesis
There are two creation accounts in Genesis. Which one is (more) correct? Does it matter?
Who wrote this part of Genesis? Are the accounts literal, fiction, allegorical, mythical, something else?
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Ultra Member
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Jun 30, 2021, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Athos
There are two creation accounts in Genesis. Which one is (more) correct? Does it matter?
Who wrote this part of Genesis? Are the accounts literal, fiction, allegorical, mythical, something else?
Amusing and instructive. LOL. Been time enough for a discussion on Genesis to begin. But nobody, especially the three fundamentalists here who it was aimed at, has picked up the gauntlet to defend a literal reading of Genesis.
Too bad, it could have been fun.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jun 30, 2021, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Athos
There are two creation accounts in Genesis. Which one is (more) correct? Does it matter?
Who wrote this part of Genesis? Are the accounts literal, fiction, allegorical, mythical, something else?
I didn't see this until now. I say both are allegorical. And as we know, many cultures through the ages have written down or passed on verbally their own stories about a Higher Power Who created everything.
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Ultra Member
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Jun 30, 2021, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I didn't see this until now. I say both are allegorical. And as we know, many cultures through the ages have written down or passed on verbally their own stories about a Higher Power Who created everything.
I agree, but why are there two different accounts of creation? And who wrote this part of Genesis?
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jun 30, 2021, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Athos
I agree, but why are there two different accounts of creation? And who wrote this part of Genesis?
One describes how God created order out of chaos, and the other tells how and why He created mankind. My question is why did it take Him six days?
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Ultra Member
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Jun 30, 2021, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
One describes how God created order out of chaos, and the other tells how and why He created mankind. My question is why did it take Him six days?
First he creates Adam and Eve together - "male and female he created them". Then later he creates Eve from Adam's rib. Maybe God was dipping into the ambrosia or the nectar.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jun 30, 2021, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Athos
First he creates Adam and Eve together - "male and female he created them". Then later he creates Eve from Adam's rib. Maybe God was dipping into the ambrosia or the nectar.
Oh, that's where the Lilith story comes from. She was Adam's first wife but wasn't submissive enough so God got rid of her and created Eve who WAS submissive.
From Wikipedia: In some Jewish folklore, such as the satiric Alphabet of Sirach (c. AD 700–1000), Lilith appears as Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time (Rosh Hashanah) and from the same clay as Adam – compare Genesis 1:27[5] (this contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs).[6] The legend of Lilith developed extensively during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadah, the Zohar, and Jewish mysticism.[7] For example, in the 11th-century writings of Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she had coupled with the archangel Samael.[8]
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Ultra Member
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Jun 30, 2021, 10:43 PM
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The second account expands on the first. Creation of man and woman in chapter 1 is the summary, chapter 2 gives the details.
Moses assembled them from the stories his people had handed down. The "days" are creative acts, guiding the course of evolution where God wanted it to go. And as we know, the crown of God's creation is Google.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 1, 2021, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dwashbur
The second account expands on the first. Creation of man and woman in chapter 1 is the summary, chapter 2 gives the details.
The actual accounts would not support that interpretation. They are too different.
Moses assembled them from the stories his people had handed down.
Surely, as a scholar, you must know Moses is not really the author. Unless he could write from beyond the grave.
The "days" are creative acts, guiding the course of evolution where God wanted it to go. And as we know, the crown of God's creation is Google.
I always wondered about google - now I know.
Thanks for participating. See you next month.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 1, 2021, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Oh, that's where the Lilith story comes from. She was Adam's first wife but wasn't submissive enough so God got rid of her and created Eve who WAS submissive.
From Wikipedia: In some Jewish folklore, such as the satiric Alphabet of Sirach (c. AD 700–1000), Lilith appears as Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time (Rosh Hashanah) and from the same clay as Adam – compare Genesis 1:27[5] (this contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs).[6] The legend of Lilith developed extensively during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadah, the Zohar, and Jewish mysticism.[7] For example, in the 11th-century writings of Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she had coupled with the archangel Samael.[8]
Wow - that is fascinating! I never knew the details although I had heard the name Lilith over the years being connected to that old-time religion.
Fits right in to your theory of woman in the Bible. I also didn't know Samael was an archangel. My archangel knowledge was limited to Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael. Ummm - "coupled"? Is that like, ummm, "know" in the biblical sense? Must be - after all, it's in the Bible.
Did Sam and Lilly have any kids/little angels - little demons?
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jul 1, 2021, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Athos
Wow - that is fascinating! I never knew the details although I had heard the name Lilith over the years being connected to that old-time religion.
In Hebrew-language texts, the term lilith or lilit (translated as "night creatures", "night monster", "night hag", or "screech owl") first occurs in a list of animals in Isaiah 34,[10] either in singular or plural form according to variations in the earliest manuscripts. The Isaiah 34:14 Lilith reference does not appear in most common Bible translations such as KJV and NIV. Commentators and interpreters often envision the figure of Lilith as a dangerous demon of the night, who is sexually wanton, and who steals babies in the darkness. In the Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q510-511, the term first occurs in a list of monsters. Jewish magical inscriptions on bowls and amulets from the 6th century AD onwards identify Lilith as a female demon and provide the first visual depictions of her.
Fits right in to your theory of woman in the Bible. I also didn't know Samael was an archangel.
Read the Wikipedia article on him to learn more. He was quite a cute guy!
One Wikipedia paragraph:
In the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, [5] he is the dominant evil figure. Samael plants the Tree of knowledge, thereupon he is banished and cursed by God. [7]:257–60 To take revenge, he tempts Adam and Eve into sin by taking the form of the serpent. [5][6]
Ummm - "coupled"? Is that like, ummm, "know" in the biblical sense? Must be - after all, it's in the Bible.
Yup, you nailed it!
Did Sam and Lilly have any kids/little angels - little demons?
Sounds like a fun research project!
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Ultra Member
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Jul 1, 2021, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I clicked on the Adam and eve link and got this:
Adam and Eve according to the creation myth of the Abrahamic religions, [1][2] were the first man and woman. They are central to the belief that humanity is in essence a single family, with everyone descended from a single pair of original ancestors. [3] They also provide the basis for the doctrines of the fall of man and original sin that are important beliefs in Christianity, although not held in Judaism or Islam. [4]
The Fall of Man by Peter Paul Rubens, 1628–29
In the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, chapters one through five, there are two creation narratives with two distinct perspectives. In the first, Adam and Eve are not named. Instead, God created humankind in God's image and instructed them to multiply and to be stewards over everything else that God had made. In the second narrative, God fashions Adam from dust and places him in the Garden of Eden. Adam is told that he can eat freely of all the trees in the garden, except for a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Subsequently, Eve is created from one of Adam's ribs to be his companion. They are innocent and unembarrassed about their nakedness. However, a serpent convinces Eve to eat fruit from the forbidden tree, and she gives some of the fruit to Adam. These acts give them additional knowledge, but it gives them the ability to conjure negative and destructive concepts such as shame and evil. God later curses the serpent and the ground. God prophetically tells the woman and the man what will be the consequences of their sin of disobeying God. Then he banishes them from the Garden of Eden.
The myth underwent extensive elaboration in later Abrahamic traditions, and it has been extensively analyzed by modern biblical scholars. Interpretations and beliefs regarding Adam and Eve and the story revolving around them vary across religions and sects; for example, the Islamic version of the story holds that Adam and Eve were equally responsible for their sins of hubris, instead of Eve being the first one to be unfaithful. The story of Adam and Eve is often depicted in art, and it has had an important influence in literature and poetry.
The story of the fall of Adam is often considered to be an allegory. Findings in population genetics, particularly those concerning Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, indicate that a single first "Adam and Eve" pair of human beings never existed.
Last sentence - proof positive that the story is an allegory?
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jul 1, 2021, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Athos
Last sentence - proof positive that the story is an allegory?
Makes sense to me.
And, again, why did it take an all-powerful God six days to create everything?
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Ultra Member
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Jul 1, 2021, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Makes sense to me.
And, again, why did it take an all-powerful God six days to create everything?
Because that "all-powerful" God is part of the allegory.
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Uber Member
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Jul 2, 2021, 05:16 AM
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1. If the Genesis creation account is to be seen as purely allegorical, what allegorical meaning is to be drawn from it?
2. Why could Moses not have been the author of all of the Pentateuch except for the end of the Deuteronomy account?
3. From an atheist's perspective, what do you gain from "getting rid" of Genesis? Don't you still have the enormous challenge of the literally dozens and dozens of NT scriptures which speak of wrath, judgment and hell? Compared to that, the flood is a nothing issue, isn't it?
4. If all of Genesis is fictional, then how do you replace the Abraham narrative which is central to Christian theology?
5. Why could the two Genesis creation accounts simply be seen as complementary?
6. Considering the supposed difficulties of the two creation narratives, why do you think some scribe in the many centuries before Christ didn't simply clean it up and do away with that supposed problem?
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Ultra Member
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Jul 2, 2021, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jlisenbe
1. If the Genesis account is to be seen as purely allegorical, what allegorical meaning is to be drawn from it?
Easily found on google. Many interpretations - take your pick.
2. Why could Moses not have been the author of all of the Pentateuch except for the end of the Deuteronomy account?
Maybe because he was dead? Plus the obvious answer all (most) scholars believe - that a famous name was used as author to make the account more credible. You should know this if you want to continue as some sort of expert on the literalness of the Bible.
3. From an atheist's perspective, what do you gain from "getting rid" of Genesis?
You would have to ask an atheist.
4. If all of Genesis is fictional
You said it, not me. Look up the definitions of "fiction" and "allegorical". Then answer your own question.
then how do you replace the Abraham narrative which is central to Christian theology?
Abraham is OK, but not the flood? Cherry-pick much?
5. Why could the two Genesis creation accounts simply be seen as complementary?
Because they're different.
6. Considering the supposed difficulties of the two creation narratives, why do you think some scribe in the many centuries before Christ didn't simply clean it up and do away with that supposed problem?
Because they're from different traditions.
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Uber Member
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Jul 2, 2021, 07:57 AM
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Easily found on google. Many interpretations - take your pick.
But I'm asking what yours is. Either you or WG.
Maybe because he was dead?
Only at the end of Dt.
Plus the obvious answer all (most) scholars believe
You have data for that?
Abraham is OK, but not the flood? Cherry-pick much?
Actually, I didn't. I offered them as suppositions.
Because they're different.
Isn't that how the concept of complementary works?
Because they're from different traditions.
I'm not sure there is any evidence for that, but even if there is, wouldn't they have seen the supposed discrepancies you claim to see and have viewed it as a serious problem?
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Ultra Member
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Jul 2, 2021, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jlisenbe
But I'm asking what yours is. Either you or WG.
Why?
Well, he certainly wasn't alive during the creation.
You have data for that? (Moses' authorship)
Look it up - it's all over the internet. Surely you knew that.
Isn't that how the concept of complementary works?
Depends on the nature of the difference.
I'm not sure there is any evidence for that
Plenty of evidence.
wouldn't they have seen the supposed discrepancies you claim to see
I did not "claim" to see "discrepancies" - they are there in black and white for anyone who can read to see. Also, they have differences, not discrepancies - a nuanced understanding.
and have viewed it as a serious problem? (previous scribes)
Obviously not, since they exist. Genesis was assembled over time and put together at different times. The latest and the version most of us are familiar with today was finalized during the Babylonian Exile. It's called the Priestly Tradition.
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Uber Member
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Jul 2, 2021, 08:41 AM
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1. You two say it is allegorical. It seems strange to me to claim something is an allegory, and yet have not idea what the moral meaning is. Oh well.
2. Most of the biographers of the lives of George Washington, Lincoln, King George, Martin Luther, the emperors of Rome, and generally all other figures of history were not alive when those events happen. It is simple history. The writer does not have to be alive when it happens
3. All over the internet? Sure it is.
4. "Depends on the difference." I'd agree with that.
5. "Plenty of evidence." I'm not saying there's not, but I am saying that I would need to see that evidence to believe your statement.
6. Discrepancies or differences, why didn't the scribes simply make the correction?
7. You have no idea how or when Genesis was put together. No one has a certain answer to that question.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 2, 2021, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jlisenbe
1. You two say it is allegorical. It seems strange to me to claim something is an allegory, and yet have not idea what the moral meaning is. Oh well.
This makes no sense. You're confusing yourself - not for the first time. You didn't answer the question of WHY do you want to know my (our) interpretation of Genesis?
2. Most of the biographers of the lives of George Washington, etc., etc., ......were not alive when those events happen. It is simple history. The writer does not have to be alive when it happens
If no one was alive, how did "Moses" know?
3. All over the internet? Sure it is.
This evasion of Jl refers to Moses' debatable authorship of the first five books of the OT. It certainly IS all over the internet. It's been a major topic for scholars since forever. Denying it doesn't cause it to go away.
5. "Plenty of evidence." I'm not saying there's not, but I am saying that I would need to see that evidence to believe your statement.
6. Discrepancies or differences, why didn't the scribes simply make the correction?
7. You have no idea how or when Genesis was put together. No one has a certain answer to that question.
These are easy questions to research and answer. Jl is just playing the troll to cast confusion - a trick he does well.
The answers are accessible via that great library we all have at out fingertips - the internet. If Jl is willing to spend the necessary time reading, he can get all the answers he wants verified by scholars and those who have undertaken the examination of the Bible over the years.
But that's not what Jl wants. He wants to muddle the discussion by demanding long and complex ideas in the space of a Q&A forum. He thinks that gives him the upper hand.
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