[jlisenbe]

Pastures, cotton fields, and corn fields were all around. So girls got pregnant by harvesting corn and hay?

[Wondergirl]

Pastures, cotton fields, and corn fields were all around. So girls got pregnant by harvesting corn and hay?

Wolves with their dates drove their cars into the cornfields and disappeared from public view. Haylofts and lake bluffs need no explanation.

[jlisenbe]

Like I said. You either had a really strange childhood or a wildly overactive imagination.

[Wondergirl]

Like I said. You either had a really strange childhood or a wildly overactive imagination.

Not my childhood. My teenage date life. Beating off the wolves.

[talaniman]

In my youth, even before the teen age stuff, there were nice girls and naughty girls, bad boys and scared innocent KIDS! Looking back, those innocent kids had it right.

[jlisenbe]

Literalists (speaking for myself, not the Catholic Church) give the words their meaning without applying any connotations or deeper levels the words may have - in other words; strictly - according to the basic primary meaning of the words.

I suppose that would be true for an absolutely strict literalist. I've never met that person. Everyone I've ever met realizes there are passages of the Bible which should be taken figuratively, and in the same way I doubt that anyone takes all parts of the Bible to be metaphorical. So the question becomes one of deciding how to go about applying a standard.

When you read a passage which agrees with your ideas and strikes you as reasonable, then you accept it as true.


This is not a bad argument. Don't you do the same thing? Doesn't everybody do the same thing? We apply our brains and reasoning power to make decisions, even of faith - especially of faith!

Does everyone agree with the agreeable and disagree with the disagreeable? That's an easy one. NO! I don't like at all the idea of a coming day of judgment, but I agree with it since it's clearly Biblical. Over the years there have been many times I wanted to do something but didn't because of the Bible.

[talaniman]

1. You could say that about almost any writings of man past and present, but a person should be able to come to their own conclusions on what fits them best. What do you tell people who have taken another path to God besides the one you are proposing?

2. I rejoice when one finds what works for them and gives them peace and purpose. I would hope you do the same.

[jlisenbe]

What do you tell people who have taken another path to God besides the one you are proposing?

If they are right in finding "another path to God," then Jesus was wrong when he said, "No man comes to the Father but by me." Take your pick. I know who I'm going to believe.

gives them peace and purpose.

If that's what you're shooting for, then go for it.

[Athos]

I suppose that would be true for an absolutely strict literalist. I've never met that person.

I've met many born-again fundamentalists who believe literally in Genesis. Do you believe literally in Genesis?

So the question becomes one of deciding how to go about applying a standard.

No argument there. A standard is applied by an examination of the Bible - it's culture, it's historical times, it's various languages, and much more. Not simply by taking its words at face value - especially in light of the many translations it has gone through over the centuries.

Does everyone agree with the agreeable and disagree with the disagreeable? That's an easy one. NO!

No one is saying that. The discussion is about the reasonable, not the agreeable.

I don't like at all the idea of a coming day of judgment, but I agree with it since it's clearly Biblical.

The day of judgement was originally believed to be during the time of the Apostles. That was 2,000 years ago. Many have said the day of judgment is near, even recently a board member here who disappeared when the day never came as he predicted. Then that other guy who made the national news a few years ago and was shocked when his prediction failed. And all the others down the years who have predicted and failed. You may believe it as you will but those events should, at least, provide food for thought.

Over the years there have been many times I wanted to do something but didn't because of the Bible.

Good for you. No one denies the Bible is a good book, inspired, and worthy of guidance. The law has probably prevented you from doing something also.

[jlisenbe]

I've met many born-again fundamentalists who believe literally in Genesis. Do you believe literally in Genesis?

But you've never met a fundamentalist who took every passage of the Bible literally, just like I've never met an agnostic who took every passage to be metaphorical. Do you believe that all of Genesis is figurative?

No one is saying that.

I think that is basically what you are saying. If Jesus makes a statement that strikes you as reasonable, then you accept it, but if otherwise then you reject it. You are taking the same approach the rich young ruler took.

The day of judgement was originally believed to be during the time of the Apostles. That was 2,000 years ago. Many have said the day of judgment is near, even recently a board member here who disappeared when the day never came as he predicted. Then that other guy who made the national news a few years ago and was shocked when his prediction failed. And all the others down the years who have predicted and failed. You may believe it as you will but those events should, at least, provide food for thought.

A lot of fluff. The apostles believed it. Luther believed it. Wesley believed it. Moody and Spurgeon believed it. The church today, both Protestant and Catholic, believe it. The prophets of the OT believed it. Jesus certainly believed it, and that's good enough for me.

Good for you. No one denies the Bible is a good book, inspired, and worthy of guidance. The law has probably prevented you from doing something also.

If the Bible is inaccurate and unreliable, then it is good only for starting camp fires. What should we do with a book that tells us to follow Christ even through persecution and death? What would you tell the suffering Christians of the world who persevere because that's what the Bible tells them to do? Should they quit and give it up because, after all, the Bible is only partially true and basically unreliable? Should they forfeit their lives for a book like that?

[paraclete]

[

Good for you. No one denies the Bible is a good book, inspired, and worthy of guidance. The law has probably prevented you from doing something also.

The Bible is not just a good book, if that were so it would have been abandoned long ago, It is God inspired and records many words spoken by God through his prophets and through Jesus. Unfortunately, there are those who think it a metaphor

[Athos]

Since the Bible is, in your view, unreliable

I did NOT say the Bible is unreliable. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I said it needed to be interpreted.

(You say the Bible is)) certainly not, itself, an objective standard,

An objective standard is one in which the Bible (or anything) can be measured. You cannot measure the Bible against the Bible. That makes no sense. It's like measuring the color of an orange against an orange. It must be measured against something that is not itself. In Biblical terms, that means contemporary history, language, culture, archeology, etc., etc.

then aren't you left in the position of basically guessing which statements of Christ to accept and which to reject?

Not at all! Biblical interpretation is based on the scholarship and efforts of others down the centuries. Many have been experts in the fields mentioned above. No one is required to believe everything they say, but they are good for study. Guesswork is very limited.

How would you possibly know what His message was if the NT is not reliable?

Logical fallacy. You posit in your premise that I claim the Bible is not reliable. I never claimed that so your conclusion is in error.

You are making two arguments at once.

No, I'm not. See immediately below.

It is one thing to suggest that we only accept the ideas of the Bible we agree with.

I never said that. You may be conflating "agreeable" with "reasonable".

A person who does so sets him/herself above the Bible and becomes, in effect, its judge. Now to apply our brains and powers of reason to understand the Bible is proper. It is two entirely different concepts.

NOT SO! It is one concept - the one following the other. You agree that applying reason to the Bible is proper. Yet, you deny applying that reason to the Bible since the person sets himself up as judge of the Bible. You can't have it both ways.

and admitted that you basically have no objective standard to apply to the Bible

I didn't ADMIT anything. I've tried to explain to you about an "objective standard". If you can't (or won't) understand it. I don't know how I can make it any simpler than I've already done.

What I find surprising is that you have no inclination to allow others to do the same.

I have no power to allow or disallow what others do.

[jlisenbe]

Wow. Perhaps this can all be settled by two simple questions.

1. Do you consider the Bible to be completely authoritative, or only in some passages?

2. Do you believe that the text we have now is substantially what was written centuries ago? In other words, there might be some scattered passages that are in question, but the great bulk of the Biblical text corresponds with the original autographs.

[Athos]

=jlisenbe;3852377]Wow. Perhaps this can all be settled by two simple questions. 1. Do you consider the Bible to be completely authoritative, or only in some passages?

You'll have to define what you mean by authoritative.

2. Do you believe that the text we have now is substantially what was written centuries ago? In other words, there might be some scattered passages that are in question, but the great bulk of the Biblical text corresponds with the original autographs.

In general, yes. Again, you'll have to define what you mean by "great bulk".

I've answered yours. Why haven't you answered mine?

1. Do you believe Genesis is literal?

2. I do not believe Jesus condemned to eternal punishment in hell unbelievers and/or sinners. Can you present your belief in this matter clearly and simply without linking to Bible verses? In other words, just in your own words.

Keep in mind, #2 above has been the original dispute. All the rest has been nothing more than distractions/diversions on both sides.

[jlisenbe]

You'll have to define what you mean by authoritative.

The power (authority) to tell us what to believe and what to do, even should it seem unreasonable to us.

1. Do you believe Genesis is literal? Yes. I don't believe that the "days" of creation were 24 hour days, nor would it be necessary to believe that to take the passage literally.

2. I do not believe Jesus condemned to eternal punishment in hell unbelievers and/or sinners. Can you present your belief in this matter clearly and simply without linking to Bible verses? In other words, just in your own words.

I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 25. There is a great day of judgment coming, and he will be the judge. There will be those who go to hell for eternity, and those who go to heaven for eternity. John 3:16 makes it plain that belief in Christ is the way to escape judgment.

I find it beyond astonishing that you would find it desirable to not link Bible passages. You want to discuss the Bible but not refer to Bible passages?

OK. My turn. You made a very strange statement earlier. It was this: "To answer your question - Jesus' words of love are taken as written since they are wholly consistent with his message and with the message of both Old and New Testaments. Matthew 25 as you interpret it is wholly inconsistent with Jesus." Now where Jesus agrees with you, you refer to it as "Jesus' words". But when the very plain statement of Jesus in Matthew 25 does NOT agree with you, suddenly it is not "Jesus' words" (which clearly is the case), but rather it becomes "as you interpret it". So why do you accept the words of Jesus in one passage, but not in the other passage? The words are equally plain in both places.

[Athos]

The power (authority) to tell us what to believe and what to do, even should it seem unreasonable to us.

Your answer is troubling.

Do you believe that God killed all those soldiers who were enemies of the Israelites even though it would seem "unreasonable" to us. And what about killing the entire human race except for Noah and his family? Is that part of your "unreasonable" belief? (I like how you changed “disagreeable” to “unreasonable” - LOL. You should thank me).

Is this the same God who gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one saying “Thou shalt not Kill”?

1. Do you believe Genesis is literal? Yes. I don't believe that the "days" of creation were 24 hour days, nor would it be necessary to believe that to take the passage literally.

You believe in talking snakes, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, men living for 900 years, and yet you balk at 24 hour days in Genesis? Wow!

I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 25. There is a great day of judgment coming, and he will be the judge. There will be those who go to hell for eternity, and those who go to heaven for eternity.

In Matthew 25, (btw, your Matthew here is NOT what is written in that Gospel - you changed it to suit your argument), the translation by Jerome from the earlier Latin and Greek mistranslated the Greek to mean eternal where it meant a period of longer or shorter duration and complete in itself. The mistranslation gave rise to the idea of an “eternal hell” which was followed by the subsequent editions. Jerome was not a Greek scholar, only learning the language late in life.

Additionally, you previously contrasted eternal "punishment" (not "hell") with eternal "life" not "heaven". The opposite of life is death. It is eternal since death lasts forever. Either position will cover either of your positions.

I find it beyond astonishing that you would find it desirable to not link Bible passages. You want to discuss the Bible but not refer to Bible passages?

I find it astonishing you can make such a statement after so many months discussing the Bible on these pages with seldom linking to the Bible. Were there some? Yes, but far more without them.

When I asked you to put your belief in your own words, one reason was to prevent you from hiding behind Bible verses. I find it further astonishing that you can't manage this simple task of using your own words without the Bible.

OK. My turn. You made a very strange statement earlier. It was this: "To answer your question - Jesus' words of love are taken as written since they are wholly consistent with his message and with the message of both Old and New Testaments. Matthew 25 as you interpret it is wholly inconsistent with Jesus." Now where Jesus agrees with you, you refer to it as "Jesus' words". But when the very plain statement of Jesus in Matthew 25 does NOT agree with you, suddenly it is not "Jesus' words" (which clearly is the case), but rather it becomes "as you interpret it". So why do you accept the words of Jesus in one passage, but not in the other passage? The words are equally plain in both places.

WHOA! Your turn? You already had your turn by starting the questions. But I will answer.

My statement wasn't a bit strange. Only to you was it strange. I previously explained to you the differences between the two passages which was one word, not "the words" of Jesus. I have done it again above more fully. What is confusing you?

It seems like your nit-picking again. You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

[jlisenbe]

Do you believe that God killed all those soldiers who were enemies of the Israelites even though it would seem "unreasonable" to us. And what about killing the entire human race except for Noah and his family? Is that part of your "unreasonable" belief? (I like how you changed “disagreeable” to “unreasonable” - LOL. You should thank me).

I asked if you think the Bible is authoritative. You became evasive and acted like you didn't know what the word means, so I gave you a definition, and this is what you come up with? I guess that means we are not going to get an answer.

In Matthew 25, (btw, your Matthew here is NOT what is written in that Gospel - you changed it to suit your argument), the translation by Jerome from the earlier Latin and Greek mistranslated the Greek to mean eternal where it meant a period of longer or shorter duration and complete in itself. The mistranslation gave rise to the idea of an “eternal hell” which was followed by the subsequent editions. Jerome was not a Greek scholar, only learning the language late in life.

Additionally, you previously contrasted eternal "punishment" (not "hell") with eternal "life" not "heaven". The opposite of life is death. It is eternal since death lasts forever. Either position will cover either of your positions.

You've tried this explanation before. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. No translation agrees with you. When you contend that you have somehow solved the mystery of the meaning of eternal, and hundreds of highly skilled and knowledgeable Bible translators got it wrong, then you are on the thinnest of thin ice.

I see this tried from time to time. On the one hand is a small group of people who claim to have discovered the truth. The Greek word xxxxxx actually means something other than what practically everyone thinks it means. On the other hand is an irresistible avalanche of Biblical scholarship represented by dozens of translations that completely disagree with their view. The truth is, you simply don't like what Jesus said. No amount of verbal gymnastics will conceal that simple truth.

My statement wasn't a bit strange. Only to you was it strange. I previously explained to you the differences between the two passages which was one word, not "the words" of Jesus. I have done it again above more fully. What is confusing you?

It seems like your nit-picking again. You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Once again you have no answer. Even if you want to continue with your fantasy about the meaning of the Greek for "eternal", you have to either accept what Jesus said or reject it. You have chosen to reject it. Just so everyone else can see your evasiveness, I'll repost the words of Christ below.

"“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

While you're trying to explain away that, you might want to look at these as well.

1. Matt. 25:31-48. This lengthy passage clearly sets forth the existence of a fiery hell. The people sent to hell were judged, not for what they did, but for what the neglected to do. The inference is that Christ was not Lord.
2. Matthew 13:49,50. ^“This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous ⁵⁰ and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
3. Matthew 10:28. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
4. Matthew 18:8. “It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.”
5. Luke 3:17. “His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
6. Luke 16:19ff. “In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ²⁴ So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. ²⁶ And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’”
7. 1 Thessalonians 1:10. “Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
8. 1 Thessalonians 5:9. “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
9. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus. ⁹They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the LORD and from the glory of his might…”
10. Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
11. Matthew 5:22. “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
12. Jude 7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
13. 2 Peter 2:4ff. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment… if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
14. Psalm 21:8-9. You will capture all your enemies. Your strong right hand will seize all who hate you. You will throw them in a flaming furnace when you appear. The LORD will consume them in his anger; fire will devour them.
15. Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
16. Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
17. John 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” What a powerful statement concerning the necessity of faith in Christ.

[paraclete]

jl, athos, a reminder, this is not the religious discussions page

[Athos]

I asked if you think the Bible is authoritative.

Correct.

You became evasive and acted like you didn't know what the word means

Acted like? Your answer was so vague, I couldn't use it so I asked you to define your answer. Something wrong with that? Nothing evasive about it.

so I gave you a definition,

Yes, it was all about you being told what to believe which you obey even if it makes no sense (unreasonable).

I guess that means we are not going to get an answer.

My answer was spot on, putting you in that uncomfortable position you Bible quoters fear when the murderous God of the OT is brought up representing that authority you so deeply believe in. Not easy to chew on that, is it? So, in desperation, you declare it a non-answer.

You've tried this explanation before. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.

Hell, even here in your previous post quoting the Gospel, you put in your own words to make a point that were not the words of the Gospel. What makes you think others couldn't have done the same thing centuries ago? You proved MY point! That's a GOTCHA!

No translation agrees with you. When you contend that you have somehow solved the mystery of the meaning of eternal, and hundreds of highly skilled and knowledgeable Bible translators got it wrong, then you are on the thinnest of thin ice.

I didn't contend I solved anything. Others did. Maybe you don't know that Biblical studies have evolved and much has been discovered in the last two centuries. You should look into it rather than just exercising an "authority" that you don't have.

I'll repost the words of Christ below.

They are the words that an anonymous author wrote at least several decades after Christ's death and who never knew Jesus. They were not confirmed until three centuries later!!

Why are you so afraid of examining the Bible? Nothing but good can come of it.

Your long list of verses has already been vetted and found wanting in terms of eternal punishment for unbelievers in an unending hell. You have an unfortunate habit of repeating yourself as though mere repetition is a proof of truth.

jl, athos, a reminder, this is not the religious discussions page

I know - sorry.

[jlisenbe]

Hell, even here in your previous post quoting the Gospel, you put in your own words to make a point that were not the words of the Gospel. What makes you think others couldn't have done the same thing centuries ago? You proved MY point! That's a GOTCHA!

What a ridiculous argument. Someone might have done something, so there's your proof of your point? A maybe, might have? Try that in any court of law and see how far you get.

But it did prove one thing. You are convinced that people corrupted the text of the Bible. I can't imagine why anyone would appeal to a corrupted, unreliable text.

I didn't contend I solved anything. Others did. Maybe you don't know that Biblical studies have evolved and much has been discovered in the last two centuries. You should look into it rather than just exercising an "authority" that you don't have.

Is that your explanation of why no translation agrees with your idea? Hmmm.

They are the words that an anonymous author wrote at least several decades after Christ's death and who never knew Jesus. They were not confirmed until three centuries later!!

Matthew never knew Jesus? Interesting. Yet another confirmation of your belief that the Biblical text is unreliable, and raises again the question of why you would pay any attention at all to it.

Why are you so afraid of examining the Bible? Nothing but good can come of it.

You are the one who asked that I not refer to Bible passages earlier.

Your long list of verses has already been vetted and found wanting in terms of eternal punishment for unbelievers in an unending hell. You have an unfortunate habit of repeating yourself as though mere repetition is a proof of truth.

Sure they have. In the meantime, we wait for any text at all from to verify your ideas.