[talaniman]

I would give her the same break she give the gay couple. They exercised their right and sued her for discrimination, and she exercised her rights to counter sue.

What ever the judge says, he says. That's the breaks. That's the law.

[Wondergirl]

How far will you take your stand here?

How far will you take yours?

[Alty]

So in other words, there is no point at which you would give the lady a break in trying to balance her faith and business and everyone's rights. Correct? I mean it seems clear to me that the only rights you and the lefties want protected are those of the gay couple. Correct?

If the wedding were at a porn shop, a strip club, was a nude affair, if they wanted Satanic symbols in the arrangements or asked her to slaughter a lamb and sprinkle the blood on the flowers you could find no point at which this lady could say no, I won't do that. Correct?

How far will you take your stand here?

Most florists simply provide the flowers, they don't actually set up the flowers at the venue. Someone picks up the flowers for the couple and delivers them. Set up is usually a separate fee, and not all florists even offer it as an option. In other words, I fail to see how she was being forced, or even asked, to participate in the actual ceremony. She was simply asked to provide the flowers, to a customer she knew was gay, and had served in the past.

[tomder55]

So in other words the florist is only called on to sell flowers and do no arranging.. not even the bouquet ?
Well she seems to think otherwise. From her counter suit.
Arlene's Flowers has never refused to sell flowers to someone simply because of sexual orientation," the countersuit says. "But because of Barronelle Stutzman's Christian faith, she cannot as a matter of conscience participate in or facilitate a same-sex wedding by using her creative skills to personally craft floral arrangements to decorate the wedding. The Attorney General's attempt to use state law to compel her and Arlene's Flowers to do so violates the state and federal constitutions."

[Wondergirl]

so in other words the florist is only called on to sell flowers and do no arranging ..not even the bouquet ?
Well she seems to think otherwise. From her counter suit.
Arlene's Flowers has never refused to sell flowers to someone simply because of sexual orientation," the countersuit says. "But because of Barronelle Stutzman's Christian faith, she cannot as a matter of conscience participate in or facilitate a same-sex wedding by using her creative skills to personally craft floral arrangements to decorate the wedding. The Attorney General's attempt to use state law to compel her and Arlene's Flowers to do so violates the state and federal constitutions."

A red herring. She could have sold whatever flowers they wanted and an unbiased person could have arranged them at the wedding site. Of course, then she wouldn't have a lawsuit.

[Alty]

so in other words the florist is only called on to sell flowers and do no arranging ..not even the bouquet ?
Well she seems to think otherwise. From her counter suit.
Arlene's Flowers has never refused to sell flowers to someone simply because of sexual orientation," the countersuit says. "But because of Barronelle Stutzman's Christian faith, she cannot as a matter of conscience participate in or facilitate a same-sex wedding by using her creative skills to personally craft floral arrangements to decorate the wedding. The Attorney General's attempt to use state law to compel her and Arlene's Flowers to do so violates the state and federal constitutions."

Of course the florist does the arranging. Do you know what that consists of? It doesn't mean that she has to step foot in the venue where the couple is being wed. She arranges the flowers at her shop. No one is asking her to "participate" in the wedding.

No one invited her to the actual wedding. She was simply supplying the flowers, like she'd done for years before for this very same customer.

She's picking and choosing what she wants to believe in, and using religion to show her bias. Either she's okay with having gay customers, or she's not. If she's not, that's fine, but she should have stated that from the very beginning. She knew he was gay, she's admitted to selling to gays in the past, and hiring them. She sold to this particular customer, knowing he's gay, for years. Now, suddenly, it's not okay. That's the problem with all of this.

[tomder55]

A red herring. She could have sold whatever flowers they wanted and an unbiased person could have arranged them at the wedding site. Of course, then she wouldn't have a lawsuit.

Could've perhaps ;but that isn't what they were contracting her for.

[tomder55]

No one is asking her to "participate" in the wedding

The arrangement and decorations are indeed part of the ceremony . By doing the floral arrangement she is participating .

[tomder55]

She's picking and choosing what she wants to believe in, and using religion to show her bias

and you are telling her which of her religious beliefs are valid. Therefore she is not being permitted religious freedom.

[Alty]

could've perhaps ;but that isn't what they were contracting her for.

How do you know?

From what I read they never got to any form of contract. She had no idea what they were asking for, other than flowers. She didn't let them get that far. As soon as he said he was marrying his boyfriend, she told him she wouldn't supply the flowers because of her relationship with Jesus Christ.

So how do you know what he was contracting for when he was cut off right after informing her who he was going to marry?

[tomder55]

How do you know?

From what I read they never got to any form of contract. She had no idea what they were asking for, other than flowers. She didn't let them get that far. As soon as he said he was marrying his boyfriend, she told him she wouldn't supply the flowers because of her relationship with Jesus Christ.

So how do you know what he was contracting for when he was cut off right after informing her who he was going to marry?

Again ;from the reporting about her counter suit :
The countersuit says Stutzman was approached around March 1 by Robert Ingersoll, a gay patron, who asked if she would create the floral arrangements for his wedding. She declined, however, telling him she wouldn't do so because of her Christian faith. He asked her to recommend other florists, which she did, and they hugged each other before he left the store, the document states.Read more at Wash. Florist Who Refused to Make Same-Sex Wedding Decorations Countersues

[Alty]

and you are telling her which of her religious beliefs are valid. Therefore she is not being permitted religious freedom.

Not at all. But, I'm sick of people hiding behind their religion only when it suits them. It's all or nothing. If you're going to be a bigot, at least have the guts and conviction to follow your beliefs. Don't dabble.

If she had posted a sign in her store saying "I am a Christian, and because of my religious beliefs I will not sell to gays", than fine, that's her right. I wouldn't like her, nor would I go into her store (despite the fact that I'm not gay), but I'd at least have some respect for her convictions.

But she sold to gays for years, she hired gays, now suddenly it's not okay? All or nothing. Either you're religious or you're not. Stop picking and choosing what suits you.

[speechlesstx]

Tal, the US constitution and Washington law both protect religious rights.

WG, I've clearly demonstrated flexibility to accommodate both sides. You have clearly demonstrated no willingness to accommodate the florist's rights at all.

[tomder55]

Not at all. But, I'm sick of people hiding behind their religion only when it suits them. It's all or nothing. If you're going to be a bigot, at least have the guts and conviction to follow your beliefs. Don't dabble.

If she had posted a sign in her store saying "I am a Christian, and because of my religious beliefs I will not sell to gays", than fine, that's her right. I wouldn't like her, nor would I go into her store (despite the fact that I'm not gay), but I'd at least have some respect for her convictions.

But she sold to gays for years, she hired gays, now suddenly it's not okay? All or nothing. Either you're religious or you're not. Stop picking and choosing what suits you.

No actually it is not all or nothing . She clearly stated to the patron that it was the "wedding " she was opposed to ;and not the person. Her actions fall perfectly in her Christian faith .
John 8 1:11 . She does not condemn the person ,but she will not participate in their unholy union.

[talaniman]

The constitution says all are equal, the federal law is no discrimination. The state law is unclear but it doesn't over ride the constitution or the state and should be challenged in the court.

A business that can't sell its products to anyone is discrimination, and you cannot hide behind religious conviction to break the law. At least that's what you told the Muslims about Sharia law.

[Alty]

The constitution says all are equal, the federal law is no discrimination. The state law is unclear but it doesn't over ride the constitution or the state and should be challenged in the court.

A business that can't sell its products to anyone is discrimination, and you cannot hide behind religious conviction to break the law. At least that's what you told the Muslims about Sharia law.

Where's the agree button?

Darnit, it's not here.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[speechlesstx]

Tal, so Muslims have a right to stone an adulterous woman? Dude!

I ask you the same thing, is there ever a point the florist has the right to say no?

Why will no one answer my question?

[Alty]

Tal, so Muslims have a right to stone an adulterous woman? Dude!

I ask you the same thing, is there ever a point the florist has the right to say no?

Why will no one answer my question?

I already did, but my answer wasn't good enough.

If she had put a sign out stating that she's Christian and therefore doesn't believe in the rights of gays or gay marriage and won't sell to gays because of her beliefs, I wouldn't like her, but I would then say she's well within her rights to turn down this customer.

Why didn't she put out that sign? Because she was more than happy making money off the gays, until they crossed her supposed "religious" line. It's fine for them to buy flowers from her, work for her, as long as they don't get married.

I'd really like to see the exact quote from the bible that says that only gay marriage is un-Christian. I thought any gay activity was not allowed according to the bible.

[Alty]

Tal, so Muslims have a right to stone an adulterous woman? Dude!

Of course not! They have no right to use their religious convictions to commit a crime anymore than this florist does!

[NeedKarma]

Just like in the bible:
Murder in the Bible