[Wondergirl]

There have been changes we don't want for longer than 18 months. Our mind set is "What is the Government going to do about it" or "Why doesn't the Government stop them?" Seems like we are asking for the Government to run our lives.

YOU and I are the government.

[450donn]

There have been changes we don't want for longer than 18 months. Our mind set is "What is the Government going to do about it" or "Why doesn't the Government stop them?" Seems like we are asking for the Government to run our lives.We are mostly adults, why do we need government to tell us right and wrong decisions. If there is no law against it we just keep on doing it until we destroy ourselves. For instance, we have to have laws to tell us not to use contaminated water in our water bottles, Not to run sewers and garbage into our streams and rivers, Don't sell the medication that might kill people. be clean about food preparation for the public. No, The government has to pass an enforcible law before we'll stop and do it right and then we can blame the government for not doing it sooner.

Guess you did not understand my comments. I was speaking of more and bigger government, nationalism of our businesses and socialized health care. Those plans have been in the works for years. But it has not been until the past 18 or so months that an all dumbocratic run congress and now an ineffectual president have they been able to put forth all of their agenda.
When Government takes over business is that not socialism pure and simply. One needs only look to Russia and what happened there to see where we are headed in a New York minute!

[ETWolverine]

YOU and I are the government.

Not if you give up control to them.

Yes, in a republic or a democracy, the people are the government. However, if you give up your rights, including your right to choose, your rights over what you earn, what you produce, what you may consume, etc. then the people are no longer the government. If that happens the government becomes primary and WE become secondary.

That is the risk of not exerting control TODAY and just allowing a President to nationalize stuff... of "giving him a chance" when what he is doing with that chance is to decrease our freedoms.

Your argument hits the nail right on the head. WE are the government... but only as long as we excersize our control over our rights.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

I was trying to be funny.

Ummm, you failed. Because the problem is that too many people in government are trying to keep us asleep, and it's very serious when they do that.

[ETWolverine]

We gave Bush two years. Be as gracious for Obama.

Which two years were those?

I seem to remember that as soon as he was elected the legality of that election was brought into question IMMEDIATELY. Too many people didn't even let him take office before jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon. And they certainly never dropped the "Bush stole the election" stuff.

There was NEVER a time during the Bush Presidency when he wasn't just criticized, but viciously attacked. Not even right after 9-11. The WTC and Pentagon attacks muted it a bit, but it NEVER stopped it.

Sorry to tell you this, Wondergirl, but you are wrong. Bush was NEVER given a chance.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

I seem to remember that as soon as he was elected the legality of that election was brought into question IMMEDIATELY. Too many people didn't even let him take office before jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon. And they certainly never dropped the "Bush stole the election" stuff.

That's exactly how I remembered it, too.

[Danon Judas]

Thank you for your comments... I just want to say, Dyslexic workers of the world, "UNTIE!"
You might enjoy reading on-line, The Jewish World Review... always interesting... most especially Dennis Prager.

[ETWolverine]

Thank you for your comments...I just want to say, Dyslexic workers of the world, "UNTIE!"
You might enjoy reading on-line, The Jewish World Review....always interesting...most especially Dennis Prager.

Thanks, Danon. I'm a regular reader of JWR, and I love Prager.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

Thank you for your comments...I just want to say, Dyslexic workers of the world, "UNTIE!"
You might enjoy reading on-line, The Jewish World Review....always interesting...most especially Dennis Prager.

BTW, do you know what you get when you mix a dyslexic, an insomniac and an agnostic?

A person who stays up all night wondering if there's a Dog.

[450donn]

YOU and I are the government.

What? Do we now start calling you Sleeping Beauty? That liberty was lost many many years ago when we kept sending people to Washington over and over again. They got greedy and now we have no say so in our Government. Just look at the last election to be convinced of that point. There are a few states in the East and California with enough electoral votes that the rest of the country is no longer matters. Except to send more flaming liberals to the big east coast cities to bolster their electoral college votes!

[Wondergirl]

now we have no say so in our Government.

I voted in the last election. Did you?

[speechlesstx]

Have you met the president's science czar?

Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A "Planetary Regime" with the power of life and death over American citizens.

The tyrannical fantasies of a madman? Or merely the opinions of the person now in control of science policy in the United States? Or both?

These ideas (among many other equally horrifying recommendations) were put forth by John Holdren, whom Barack Obama has recently appointed Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, Assistant to the President for Science and Technology, and Co-Chair of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology -- informally known as the United States' Science Czar. In a book Holdren co-authored in 1977, the man now firmly in control of science policy in this country wrote that:

• Women could be forced to abort their pregnancies, whether they wanted to or not;
• The population at large could be sterilized by infertility drugs intentionally put into the nation's drinking water or in food;
• Single mothers and teen mothers should have their babies seized from them against their will and given away to other couples to raise;
• People who "contribute to social deterioration" (i.e. undesirables) "can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" -- in other words, be compelled to have abortions or be sterilized.
• A transnational "Planetary Regime" should assume control of the global economy and also dictate the most intimate details of Americans' lives -- using an armed international police force.

I know, that was a long time ago (just a few years after Roe v. Wade when Ruth Bader Ginsburg thought that ruling would lead to Medicaid funding for abortions because "there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of"), but scary nonetheless. Indeed Holdren's book said:

Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.

Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. No such sterilant exists today, nor does one appear to be under development. To be acceptable, such a substance would have to meet some rather stiff requirements: it must be uniformly effective, despite widely varying doses received by individuals, and despite varying degrees of fertility and sensitivity among individuals; it must be free of dangerous or unpleasant side effects; and it must have no effect on members of the opposite sex, children, old people, pets, or livestock.

Involuntary fertility control
...
A program of sterilizing women after their second or third child, despite the relatively greater difficulty of the operation than vasectomy, might be easier to implement than trying to sterilize men.
...
The development of a long-term sterilizing capsule that could be implanted under the skin and removed when pregnancy is desired opens additional possibilities for coercive fertility control. The capsule could be implanted at puberty and might be removable, with official permission, for a limited number of births.

If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility—just as they can be required to exercise responsibility in their resource-consumption patterns—providing they are not denied equal protection.

Alrighty then... reach your own conclusions.

[Wondergirl]

Have you met the president's science czar?

And what were YOU thinking about back in 1977? Back then, I believed women belonged at home, barefoot and pregnant.

[excon]

Which two years were those?

Hello again, El:

How about the two years AFTER 9/11 and BEFORE he invaded Iraq? The country LOVED him, and the darling left wing media LOVED him... But, I guess you don't remember that stuff. It's OK. That's why I'm here - to remind you of reality.

excon

[speechlesstx]

And what were YOU thinking about back in 1977? Back then, I believed women belonged at home, barefoot and pregnant.

Um, I was 17 and believed in smoking weed and lots of it. I didn't however, co-author a book on issues surrounding marijuana. In 1977 Holdren had held a PhD for 7 years, I think he was fairly sure of his beliefs by then. In 2006 he was one who claimed global sea levels could rise by 13 feet by the end of this century, even though the IPCC claimed it would be more like 13 inches.

[Wondergirl]

Um, I was 17 and believed in smoking weed and lots of it. I didn't however, co-author a book on issues surrounding marijuana.

You would have if you could. You were too busy having the "munchies."

In 1977 Holdren had held a PhD for 7 years, I think he was fairly sure of his beliefs by then.

I'm in his cohort, and was well-educated at the same time as he, and was convinced about the barefoot and pregnant thing--and in fact was just that, barefoot and pregnant. Like any good Stepford wife, my house was spotless and the cupboards were full and the toys were picked up and dinner was cooking.

[speechlesstx]

You would have if you could. You were too busy having the "munchies."

Um, no. I was also working, paying rent and chasing babes.

I'm in his cohort, and was well-educated at the same time as he, and was convinced about the barefoot and pregnant thing--and in fact was just that, barefoot and pregnant. Like any good Stepford wife, my house was spotless and the cupboards were full and the toys were picked up and dinner was cooking.

And I noted that he has recently been just as wacky as in 1977.

[450donn]

I voted in the last election. Did you?

Uh yea! DUHHH
However if you were to look at the election results in an honest light instead of rose colored glasses you would know that the west was totally irrelevant because the big electoral college states of the east had already decided the outcome. We in the far west have not been relevant in any National elections for more than 30 years.

[Wondergirl]

Uh yea! DUHHH
However if you were to look at the election results in an honest light instead of rose colored glasses

I'll look at those election results honestly if you look at 2000's honestly.

[450donn]

What? You still believe that that environmental wacko still was actually elected president?