[Unknown008]

Alty, the bible is only a tool to help you understand God, for those asking questions, for... I think most of us do. But if you feel that you're not in such a need to read, it's your choice, and it is comprehensible. The christians you were talking about have themselves a lot of way to go before reaching Christlike, that was the moto of my church last year, and this year is 'Choose Life'. And yes many 'christians' are not really ones as they do not put into practice what they are told in church. Each teaching is supposed to bring about positive changes in life, new state of mind to become a habit, new practices to use everyday. And don't worry, keeping a relation with God is the least necessary.

[Credendovidis]

Hello Altenweg !

And I thought this board was called "Religious Discussions", but from the actual posts here it seems to be more the Christianity missionary board!!
In their religious blindness certain Christians fail to understand that what they believe is just that : BELIEF.

You have clearly indicated to believe in God. But you do NOT want to be part of any specific church or denomination, and you reject the Bible as God's word. So you are a convinced Deist, just like many of the Founding Fathers were.
The continuing attempts to convince you that Christianity is the one and only "true" religion is saddening. It shows the intolerance of many here to accept that other people here have different religious views, views that are just as valid as anyone else's.
Because as far as I know so far in the entire human existence there has never been any format of OSE for any religious belief.

Christians are allowed to believe whatever they prefer to believe. But that does not give them the right to continue their attempt to convert other people to their Christian belief against their will. It states in their Bible "spread the word". Not "force the word through their throats".
There is no OSE for the Bible to be seen as God's word. But there is a lot support for the Bible being the word of men in support of their view of God.

What irritates me most is the intolerance and haughtiness with which certain Christians are prepared to try to steamroll their religious ideas onto others. You are happy to be a deist. You clearly have stated not to be interested to change that. You do not have any Deism mission. But still the Christians here can't let it at that...
I assume these same Christians are the ones complaining to board management that I am posting here a clear Secular Humanist world view on this religious discussions board. When they can not "win" with logic, arguments, support, and intelligence, they try to reach their goal via the backdoor, furtive, hypocrite, and underhand...

:>)

.

[Unknown008]

You got a point wrong, I think Cred. Alty believes in God, but sort of does not in the bible.

[Alty]

Actually Unky, Cred knows me pretty well, he's actually the one who told me that my beliefs are that of a Deist, and after reading about Deism, I have to say that I agree. :)

I do believe in God, you are correct, but I do not believe in the bible at all, not even a little bit.

I don't think it's wrong that you do, or that anyone else does, but I don't and never will.

Here's a link that might help you to understand;

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Unknown008]

Ok, I now understand more, I never met the word deist, so I thought that it was short for atheist, having pretty close pronunciation. Thanks for the link!

[flowerss]

Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

The Bible was written by men, not God, not Jesus, but men. How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible? Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church. Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?

Bible is God's Word. Just believe it.

[talaniman]

Man may have been inspired, but he is still a man. Not saying it was good, or bad, just written by man limited though he may be. Every culture has a bible, or writing inspired by their God, nothing wrong with that. Divine............???????

[Credendovidis]

Bible is God's Word. Just believe it.

WHY ? Just because YOU believe that ? Why don't YOU believe what a Buddhist believes, or a Jew believes, or a Hindu believes, or a Muslim believes, or any of the followers of all these other religions believe?

Really : think about that... Because you were born into a Christian family and/or grew up in a Christian community. For almost 99,99% of all Christians that is why. They were being brainwashed (well intended, but never-the-less) into Christianity from birth.

:>)

.

[talaniman]

Its not just Christians to be fair, there are many devout followers of other denominations out here.

[Credendovidis]

Its not just Christians to be fair, there are many devout followers of other denominations out here.

Yes, correct. But this topic is about "The Bible, God's word or Mans", so refers mainly to Christianity.

And I do not see any Buddhists or Hindus arguing the Theory of Evolution on this board .

Inspired or not, the Bible was written by human beings.
Everything else is based on BELIEF!!

:>)

.

[Alty]

Bible is God's Word. Just believe it.

I don't think so.

Why is it so important to Christians that I believe in the bible? Why? I'm not a bad person, I lead a good life, I do my best to be good to my fellow man, to raise good kids etc. What is missing from my life?

So I don't believe in the bible, I don't use the bible as the basis for my belief, I still have belief, why isn't that good enough?

There is not that big a difference between myself and the rest of you. No, I don't go to church, no I don't read the bible or live by the bible, I don't feel the need to make anyone believe the same things that I do. I have my own mind, I follow my own path, is that so wrong and if so, why?

So why do you believe in the bible? Is it because you truly feel it's the word of God, the rules to live by, the stories of God, or is it because you've been told, or warned, or threatened to believe or else?

Think about it, because I have, for many years, and the conclusion I have come up with is that the bible is a very well written story book. That doesn't make me a bad person, just not a Christian.

Personally, I'm glad that I'm not part of the flock, I prefer to be the black sheep. ;)

[Wondergirl]

Why is it so important to Christians that I believe in the bible?

For Christians, the Bible is the story of how mankind has fallen, done wrong and lacked in love toward God and toward others, and how God, out of love and grace, has forgiven time after time. The lesson for each of us is that we are not stuck in our misbehavior/sin/evil (whatever you want to call it) and doomed to punishment, but that God gives us a way out because He loves us.

[De Maria]

Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible?

Because the Church tells us that God revealed Himself therein.

Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

Because the Church tells us that it is God's word.

The Bible was written by men

True. By men inspired of God.

, not God,

True.

not Jesus, but men.

By men whom Jesus taught. But not by Jesus, true.

How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible?

There are none. If you've got one that you think is a contradiction, bring it up.

Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Yes.

Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

This is just a simplified version of the logic behind our decision to believe that Scripture is the word of God.

1. Christ established a Church.
2. Members of the Church wrote the Gospels and the New Testament.
3. The Gospels are eyewitness testimony of Jesus' life.
4. The Gospels document that Jesus said He is God and produced many miracles to prove that He is God, including rising from the dead.
5. The epistles of the New Testament witness that miracles and teachings of the members of the Church.
6. History tells us that many of these men of the Church were persecuted to their deaths and never stopped proclaiming that Jesus is God.

7. The Church is still proclaiming that Jesus is God today.

8. Jesus proclaimed that the Old Testament is the Word of God.
9. The Church, the entity which Jesus established to teach His Word, proclaimed that the New Testament is the Word of God.

I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church.

That is good. What religion do you pertain to?

Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

Not if you believe in Church and Scripture in obedience to God.

I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?

I've done my best above.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Alty]

Wondergirl, I do understand why Chrsitians rely on the bible for the basis of their faith, really I do.

What I don't understand is the unacceptance of people who don't, people like me.

I know that when you believe something you want to spread your belief, you want others to believe, no one wants to be alone with their beliefs. But why can't most Christians accept other peoples beliefs? Does it threaten their own belief? Does it make them question their own belief? Why?

To the Christians, when you as a Christian encounter someone like me, a Deist, what is your reaction? Are you puzzled, upset, threatened, or do you feel sorry for me because you think I'm missing out on something?

Do you think I'm a lost soul because I don't accept the bible as the word of God? Do you think that I don't really believe because I don't go to church? What is your gut reaction to a person like me, and why?

[Alty]

That is good. What religion do you pertain to?

Any organized religion. I was raised a Lutheran but went to a Catholic school. I've gone to baptist churches, studied mormons (school project), JW's, you name it. No religion comes close to what I believe, it's all mans interpretation of a man written book that is claimed to be the "word of God".

Because the Church tells us that God revealed Himself therein.

Well, then maybe you can understand why I won't accept the bible, because I also won't accept a man run church.

Not if you believe in Church and Scripture in obedience to God.

I don't believe in church and scripture, but I do believe in God.

Because the Church tells us that it is God's word.

Again, I don't believe in church or organized religion. I am a Deist.

Does that explain my position? :)

[talaniman]

To bad all the inspiration, stories, and miracles, stopped and have not been recorded by modern man. I think its telling that no man has been inspired since ancient times, to add to the bible, or continue its history. I guess even among the most ardent believer, the inspiration is lacking.

It is a good insight into the mores and progress of man in the ancient times, and is a good account of history though.

[De Maria]

Any organized religion. I was raised a Lutheran but went to a Catholic school. I've gone to baptist churches, studied mormons (school project), JW's, you name it. No religion comes close to what I believe, it's all mans interpretation of a man written book that is claimed to be the "word of God".

Well, then maybe you can understand why I won't accept the bible, because I also won't accept a man run church.

I don't believe in church and scripture, but I do believe in God.

Again, I don't believe in church or organized religion. I am a Deist.

Does that explain my position? :)

Yes. Can you tell me why you believe in God?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[talaniman]

It is a good insight into the mores and progress of man in the ancient times, and is a good account of history though.

As he saw it that is from his perspective, and surroundings, in his own part of the world.

[De Maria]

To bad all the inspiration, stories, and miracles, stopped and have not been recorded by modern man. I think its telling that no man has been inspired since ancient times, to add to the bible, or continue its history. I guess even among the most ardent believer, the inspiration is lacking.

It is a good insight into the mores and progress of man in the ancient times, and is a good account of history though.

You're mistaken. The Church is infallible because it is inspired of the Holy Spirit to teach the truth. The Pope is infallible for the same reason. The saints have left a trail of miracles for 2000 years and there are many saints in the making right now.

So, there is no shortage of inspiration right now.

"BUT" you say, "the Bible is full of miracles and today we don't see that many."

That's the reason why I always preferred to watch the Monday night highlights rather than sit there and watch the whole game. Every play was exciting on the highlights. Every throw a first down or touch down. Every tackle a fumble.

Why sit through a whole boring game when I could just see the exciting plays?

History is like that. We don't study every single day of history. We study only those days which were eventful. Scripture is Salvation History. Mostly those things which are important for us to know are recorded. Otherwise, there is no book big enough to contain all the information that would be generated.

And that is why it seems that the Bible is full of people talking to God and miracles on a daily basis. But that isn't so. Although the Holy Spirit certainly was flowing powerfully when God was walking amongst men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Alty]

Yes. Can you tell me why you believe in God?

Sincerely,

De Maria

It's simply because of things that I've experienced in my life, things I've seen firsthand. Not miracles, but everyday things. Twice in my mothers life she was "legally" dead, before her actual death. Both times she witnessed something that further proved to me and her that God exists. It might not matter to anyone else, but it does for me, and has meaning for me. I can't explain it any clearer without writing an entire book about it, but rest assured that I have my reasons.

Personally I find it a miracle that after 10 years of harassment in Catholic school, I still believe in God. If anything could have turned someone away from God, my 10 years of Catholic school should have done the trick.

They did manage to turn me away from church, and the constant bible study opened my eyes as well, but they couldn't turn me from God. They tried to "save my soul" which I found amusing, because the only thing they did to save theirs was read the bible and go to church.

Most of the parents of my friends were horrible people, wife abusers, drug abusers, child molesters, but they believed that because they are Catholic and go to church, God would forgive them their sins, what hypocrisy.

I am the exact opposite of that, yes I sin, have sinned and will continue to sin, that is a human trait, and I am indeed human. But I try my hardest to do right, to live my life as a good human being. When I ask for forgiveness it's not because I did what I wanted and I'm trying to cover it up, when I make a mistake I am truly sorry, that's the difference.

So, why do I need the bible and church? Personally, and I mean no disrespect, I see both as a crutch, as a way to reassure yourself, to make yourself believe you are on the right path.

Who is right, the person who leads a good life, tries always to be kind and caring, help their fellow man, and try not to sin, or the person that goes to church, reads the bible and therefore thinks they are safe from the "wrath" of God, even though they purposefully sin. I don't believe in the "wrath" of God, but the Chritians do, which is why I mention it.

What about those that don't even believe in God? God gave us minds, and free will, as his children he wants us to use those gifts. He wants us to question, to find answers, and like any good parent, he loves us no matter what path we choose. That's what I believe with all my heart.