[godsbabygirl267]

I would like to ad that parents should be informed. But no one else. Parents should no in order to be prepared in the case that a preventative doesn't work or maybe a disease is passed

[ETWolverine]

Altenweg's question referred to the "what if they don't" scenario; then where does a child turn to? There is no 100% foolproof way to make sure that the kids will go to their parents for those that feel shamed by their situation. I feel that a third party outfit that can help the children is a good last resort. Beats losing your child forever.

Should it the job of PP to give abortions or to give COUNSELING... and in the case of minors, to counsel them to seek help from their parents?

Should school nurses be handing out contraceptives, or should they be counseling kids to seek help from parents?

I don't have a problem with PP or school nurses counseling kids who are "in trouble" as to what their options are, and acting as someone the kids can go to if they feel they can't go to their parents. But counseling a distraught teen is a far cry from handing out free abortions and contraceptives on demand without parental consent.

Counsel all you want. But the moment you start handing our pharmaceuticals or performing medical procedures on my kids without my permission, you've stepped over a HUGE line.

Elliot

[Synnen]

FREE abortions? When the heck does THAT happen?

And if they DID inform you that your child was going to receive an abortion--what would your response be? Would you allow your child to make the choice on their own?

Didn't think so.

THAT is why abortions are confidential, regardless whether the pregnant woman is 16 or 36.

While I don't like the idea of medications just being handed out TO anyone BY anyone--PP also does require a physical exam before you can receive birth control pills/IUDs/whatever. You can't just walk in and ask for a package of birth control pills! There are DOCTORS at PP. And, as has been previously mentioned--you can go in just to get information about birth control and STDs.

As I've asked before--if you don't want Planned Parenthood to exist for those who need it--what are you going to put in its place? I know that when I was a teen, there was no way I was going anyplace that was just going to "tattle" on me to my parents, and my parents would have just said "Don't have sex!!" and not given me the information I'm looking for.

Would you rather kids get their info off the internet?

[NeedKarma]

Planned Parenthood of Houston and Southeast Texas:

A new Texas law requiring Parental Consent for teens seeking abortion goes into effect September 1, 2005. Beginning on this date, the teen's parent with a valid ID, or the teen's legal guardian with an ID and proof of guardianship (i.e. court papers) will need to be present with the minor.

You may want to get more information about your choices or talk with someone you trust not someone who will decide for you, but someone to help you decide what you think will be best for you. This should be a person who cares about you. In most cases, a parent will be your best support. However, many girls feel that they can't talk to their parents. That is understandable. If you feel that you can't talk to your parents, you may want to ask another trusted person to help you talk to your parents or to help you with your decision.
That person could be:

• An adult family member (brother, sister, aunt, uncle, grandparent, cousin, etc)
• Your doctor or someone in your doctor's office
• Your minister, priest, rabbi, or other religious counselor
• Your best friend's parents
• A counselor in your school, a clinic, or a social service agency.

Get all the facts. Then make the decision that you believe will be the best one for you.

They seem to be acting properly, not as others attribute them to be.

[ETWolverine]

FREE abortions? When the heck does THAT happen?

And if they DID inform you that your child was going to receive an abortion--what would your response be? Would you allow your child to make the choice on their own?

Didn't think so.

Are you saying that it isn't my right as a parent to make decisions for my minor child? Are you saying that it is the right of perfect strangers to take that right away from me?

Earlier in this string, I asked the question of whether you felt that minors were able to make decisions regarding sex... like having sex with a 35-year-old man? If you believe that it is okay, and that kids do have the capacity to make such decisions, then there should be no such thing as statutory rape.

But if you feel that a 35 having sex with a teen is wrong, even if the kid consents, then what you are saying is that kids do not have the capacity to make such decisions on their own. And if they don't have that capacity for having sex with a 35 year old, then they don't have it for having sex with another teen either... or for the life and death decisions that come AFTER having sex.

So choose. If children have the capacity to choose, then I don't ever want to hear another word about statutory rape, or kids being "targeted" by "predators" on the internet. The kids can make their own choices, and barring actual rape, as in forced sex, it should be perfectly fine for an adult to have sex with a minor.

But if you feel that kids do not have that capacity for choice regarding sex, then that works for sex with anyone of any age. In which case, they do NOT have the capacity to choose regarding abortions or contraception either. In that case, it is MY job as a parent to make that choice... even if it is contrary to what my kid would choose... because we have established that they are incapable making that choice.

But either way, it sure as heck ain't PP's job or the school nurse's job to make that choice.

THAT is why abortions are confidential, regardless whether the pregnant woman is 16 or 36.

I don't care what adults are doing, but minors do not and should not have a presumption of "confidentiality" from their parents.

While I don't like the idea of medications just being handed out TO anyone BY anyone--PP also does require a physical exam before you can receive birth control pills/IUDs/whatever. You can't just walk in and ask for a package of birth control pills! There are DOCTORS at PP. And, as has been previously mentioned--you can go in just to get information about birth control and STDs.

If kids want information pamphlets, that's fine... but that's the ONLY thing that PP should be handing out. What gives them the right to make medical decisions for my kids without my knowledge?

As I've asked before--if you don't want Planned Parenthood to exist for those who need it--what are you going to put in its place? I know that when I was a teen, there was no way I was going anyplace that was just going to "tattle" on me to my parents, and my parents would have just said "Don't have sex!!" and not given me the information I'm looking for.

Would you rather kids get their info off the internet?

What would I do instead? How about reinstitute the idea of responsibility. Parents should be responsible for their kids, and they should teach their kids to ACT responsibly for themselves. The idea that a kid can have sex, get pregnant, and just go to PP for an abortion, thus avoiding the consequenes of their actions (not even getting grounded for disobeying my rules because thanks to a conspiracy of silence by PP and my kid to keep information about my kid's health from me, I have no idea that the event even took place), is completely contrary to the idea of personal responsibility. THAT'S what I would put in its place... RESPONSIBILITY.

As for being afraid to go to your parents because they would just have said "Don't have sex" and not given you what you were looking for... what makes you think you are supposed to have that information in the first place as a minor? If there's such a thing as statutory rape, then you shouldn't be having sex as a minor, and therefore you really don't need the information about sex right now. You only need that information if you are having sex. And you're not supposed to be having sex as a minor.

Look, it is obvious to me that we have different goals here.

What you want is for there to be a way for kids to 1) get the knowledge of how to have sex "safely" (despite the fact that they shouldn't be having sex at all as minors), 2) avoid the consequences of having sex, and 3) do all of this without the parents' knowledge or consent.

What I want is 1) for my kids not to have sex as minors and not receive help in doing so, 2) my kids to learn to be responsible for their actions, and 3) to be able to make the responsible decisions about my children's wellbeing without interference and a conspiracy of silence from outsiders.

Your way teaches kids that keeping secrets from their parents is not only okay, but will be supported by various government-supported agencies.

My way teaches responsibility, honesty and discipline.

Guess which of these works better for the kids when they grow to adulthood.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Planned Parenthood of Houston and Southeast Texas:


They seem to be acting properly, not as others attribute them to be.

"Seem to be" is right. Look NK, they know how to say all the right things when they want to, but that doesn't tell the whole story. I already posted previously to you - in their own words - how they support bypassing parental involvement, even if the teen only "feels unable to talk to her parents" or "is reluctant to disappoint her parents."

Well, boo hoo, that ain't a good enough reason to take away my rights as a parent, and there is no way I can consider PP a friend while they're fighting against my rights.

[Synnen]

Okay... first off abortion isn't an escape from responsibility. It's a very hard choice, regardless of age. Just as the OTHER two options when an unwanted pregnancy happens are hard choices.

Second--if you'll read back over my posts, I've been advocating personal responsibility for some time now. I am ALSO a realist, though. People are going to have sex, whether you believe it or not. NOT giving them education isn't stopping it--it's just making it less safe overall.

Third--instilling values is great. My parents brought me up with a GREAT sense of values, and I still had sex as a teen--mostly because, even though my mother ALSO had been pregnant as a teen (married as a teen, too, and they're STILL married to each other), I couldn't believe that my parents could possibly understand. And really--they didn't.

Fourth--PP doesn't make medical decisions for minors. They help minors make medical decisions for themselves. I've NEVER heard of anyone going to PP who was forced to take birth control or have an abortion--those were personal decisions made by the patient, regardless of age.

MY way teaches:
1. There are ways to take care of yourself out there, and you don't HAVE to depend on your parents giving you faulty/negligent information.
2. If you need help, and can NOT go to your parents, for whatever reason, there is a place to go.
3. YOU are in charge of your own body, regardless of your age. No one, not even your parents, can make you be something or someone you are not--and that includes a murderer (if forced to abort) or a mother (if forced to carry to term).

YOUR way teaches:
1. The only place to go is parents, and it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.
2. PARENTS are in charge of every aspect of your life until you turn 18--so hurry and turn 18 and THEN learn everything you need to in order to live as an adult.
3. Adult decisions can ONLY start when you're 18, so don't think about college, the military, politics, economics, contraception--just don't even THINK about adult things until you're 18, because Mom and Dad are going to override whatever you think anyway. How can kids make responsible decisions if you don't give them the chance?

Give me a break. Kids make adult decisions all the time--whether it's about sex, or grades, or serving community service, or whatever. Denying that your kids are thinking of having sex is denying that they're teenagers. You're not making a decision not to have sex if you're locked in your room during non-school hours.

And I don't think that they're "avoiding" the consequences of sex--regardless of whether sex results in a pregnancy or STD, there are consequences to sex. Emotional ties, loss of innocence, whatever.

You make it sound like I'm promoting that every teen out there have sex and then get an abortion when they get pregnant--which isn't even CLOSE to true.

I just want them educated, and unfortunately, most school programs focus on "don't have sex!" and nearly all parents focus on "don't have sex!" and no one seems to focus on "if you're going to have sex no matter what you've been told the consequences are, here are the ways to be safer" except PP.

For goodness sakes--read the teen forums here! Read the pregnancy and new motherhood threads! And the adult sexuality boards. You have NO idea how few people have a clue about how their bodies work, and the ways it's even POSSIBLE to get pregnant. Just as many have no clue how birth control works or how to have an orgasm! Most don't know how to use a condom properly, or a spermicide or half the other forms of birth control--and not just teens! Adults don't know either!

I agree (And I'll KEEP stating this) that school nurses have no business prescribing birth control. HOWEVER--if a doctor's office or Planned Parenthood or any OTHER crisis pregnancy center will give a full exam before prescribing the pill, then the teen should be able to take responsibility for her own body.

As far as your notion that if teens can choose to have sex, they can choose to have sex with ANYONE--well, that would be great, except we KNOW that teens are more susceptible to coercion. The 2 year rule most states have is wise, in my opinion.

It is the job of parents to keep talking about sex, and about their expectations of their teens, certainly. It's also the job of parents to teach teens to respect themselves and their own bodies--and to NOT just jump out there and have sex because someone ELSE wants them to.

Your example about the age difference is ridiculous--and something along the lines of "if a toddler can decide what they want for lunch, they should be able to COOK it too!"

[ETWolverine]

What makes you think that a toddler can decide what to have for lunch? Mine want cake and cookies all the time. The fact is that they CAN'T make those decisions for themselves. And neither can teens make decisions regarding sex, abortions, etc, and should not be allowed to make those decisions for themselves. Your example is proving my point.

More tomorrow.

Elliot

[Synnen]

Oh--you've never given your toddler the choice between not eating and eating whatever YOU put on their plate? Or the choice between macaroni and cheese or hotdogs? That's not choosing?

I believe that kids of ALL ages are capable of making reasonable choices for their age. Yes, as parents, adults need to make SOME of the choices for them (As in--not cake for breakfast). But we also need to give them SOME choices with actual consequences (if you don't wear your helmet, you can't ride your bike).

What YOU are telling me is that emotionally and physically, an 18 year old is completely different than a 17 year old - and that's just unreasonable.

I'm done--we're never going to concede each other's points on this. I think you're being unreasonable about what kids think and do, and you think I'm advocating that kids have sex and abortions. There's no middle ground.

[kitty-kat19]

I don't think any contraceptives should be offered to middle schoolers. The only thing that should be offered to them is better education, I know some of you believe that kids shouldn't even be taught about that kind of stuff by anyone but their parents but some parents won't talk to their kids about or if they just say something to get their kids to shut up and stop talking about it. Personally, kids are going to get information one way or another I'd rather them have acurate information.
As for high school students I think that condoms should be available, along with pamplets and stuff like that maybe in a bowl in the nurses office or counseler's office. Here's the thing, kids are going to do what they're going to do. They will find a way no matter what. Its better they have a way to get protection than have sex without.

[twinkel-star]

In my school you could go to the school nurs ang go on the pill or get comdoms and it was conferdential I was allways to ashened lol

[ETWolverine]

Hello Twinkel-star,

I would like to ask you a few questions if I may. You seem to have the unique perspective of youth that many on this board (myself included) do not have, and your opinions as a young person would be appreciated.

First of all, are you currently in high school or a recent graduate?

Second, you mention that at your school anyone could go to the school nurse and get the pill or condoms. Was this a comon practice among your fellow students? Did lots of people do go to the nurse for these things?

In your experience, were the ones getting the pill or condoms particularly poor, or from bad families, or was everyone doing it?

Were you ever taught in school NOT to have sex, or were you only told how to have sex safely?

Where did most kids learn about sex in your school? Was it from sex ed classes or from other people?

In your opinion, did sex-ed do anything to keep kids from having sex and getting pregnant? Did it make more kids have sex and get pregnant? Or did it not make any difference at all? Did you learn about the dangers of sex (diseases, pregnancy, the effect on your future, etc.)?

In your opinion, what should schools, parents, teachers and others be telling kids to keep them from having sex, getting pregnant and getting sick? Do you think that TV, newspapers, magazines, movies, and music could influence kids if they all told kids not to have sex too young?

As I said, you live in that world, where most people on this board no longer do. So your perspective on this questions would be an interesting addition to this conversation.

Thanks Twinkel-star, and I hope that I'm not embarrassing you. That is most certainly not my intention. I really do want to know what you, as a young person think about these things, because I believe that what you think is an important part of understanding how to help kids not get sick or pregnant.

Elliot

[leneg]

I am not from the US. There is one thing that amazes me when I read this discussion:

Many of you talk about minors as one irresponsible, incapable group. It seems like you miss the fact that there is a fundamental difference between say a 13-14 year old and a 16-17 year old. Yes I agree with you that giving birth control pills to a 13 year old without parental consent probably is a bad idea.

However, as adolescents grow older they become more capable of taking care of themselves, and should accordingly have more rights to make their own decisions. By age 16 and 17, minors are generally capable and responsible enough to take care of their own sexuality and healthcare.

In my country like many other countries the age of sexual consent and the age of medical consent/medical emancipation is 16.

To suggest that a 16-17 year old is incapable of consenting to their own healthcare and has no right to privacy is to me and to most europeans totally absurd.

[tomder55]

By age 16 and 17, minors are generally capable and responsible enough to take care of their own sexuality and healthcare.

Perhaps

But we are talking here about the administering of a drug to a minor who's body has not yet fully developed . Without a medical reason for doing so that is a risky move in my book .

[inthebox]

Blame contraception programs for STD epidemic


"Have any of the so-called experts actually looked at real life data over the past 30 to 40 years? During that time, every negative sexually related outcome -- teen sexual activity, teen pregnancy, STDs, abortion -- rose in direct correlation with increased funding for contraception sex education"


"Do the so-called experts know that the federal funding ratio is 92.3 percent for contraception programs versus 7.7 percent for abstinence/healthy-relationship programs? Who in their right mind would blame the STD epidemic on abstinence programs with such imbalanced funding?"





Contrast that with the NYT propaganda

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/science/12std.html

"The president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Cecile Richards, said the new findings “emphasize the need for real comprehensive sex education.”

“The national policy of promoting abstinence-only programs is a $1.5 billion failure,” Ms. Richards said, “and teenage girls are paying the real price."

Yeah, Planned parenthood using these disturbing statistics to plea for more "education"
The statistics bear out founder, Margaret Sanger's attitudes towards blacks.

[Synnen]

The rise in teen pregnancy can ALSO directly be corralated to women working outside the home, and the rise in divorce/single parent homes.

Let's ban divorce! Let's make women stay home with children and raise them! Let's go back to victorian ages where no one even TALKS about sex, much less has it outside of marriage, except men, of course, who can have sex with women lower class than they are when they hit puberty and pass on those sexually transmitted to their virgin brides.

You can corrolate any number of facts over 40 years, but how can you POSSIBLY blame any ONE factor for something so encompassing of our entire society?

[justcurious55]

I say yes to condoms but no to hormonal because. Kids are going to do what they want so the nurses might as well offer condoms. It should definitely be confidential. Other doctors have to maintain confidentiality, so should the school nurse. They could do it like planned parenthood, have a basket that say 3 free, 4 for $1 or something.
I only say no to the school nurse giving out hormonal because because that something that needs a prescription for a reason. There's so many different forms of hormonal because and sometimes it takes a while to find the one that's right for a girl and you have to make sure it doesn't interfere with any other meds or anything like that and I just really feel that its something that should be monitored by a regular doctor who knows the details of the rest of your health.

[jillianleab]

justcurious, in this case, the pill is being distributed by a regular doctor. The teens are getting it by visiting a clinic with actual doctors, not school nurses. They are also only given the pill after a full exam, just like in your regular family doctor's office.

And Synnen, I think you've just illustrated that correlation does not equal causation! :)

[kay2772]

I think contraception in schools should be allowed only not in middle school... that is too young. In Maine I read that they're allowing students as young as 11 receive this service through the school. I myself am currently trying to learn more about this however for a speech I'm doing... so if you know any other information or can tell me where to look that would be great.