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De Maria · Dec 10, 2007, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by NowWhat

But evolution is not a fact, right?

Correct.

It might be "close" - but not an actual fact.

You are precisely correct. Although many try to pawn us the idea that evolution is an established fact, the fact is it is one explanation of the evidence. But not necessarily the right one. And it can't be, because the definition of evolution is itself "evolving". For instance, when I was growing up, the evolution of the horse was explained as eohippus, to some other hippus etc. etc. to the modern horse. But that model of evolution has now been discarded.

As new fossils were discovered, though, it became clear that the old model of horse evolution was a serious oversimplification.
Horse Evolution

As shown in a detailed thesis by Walter Barnhart,7 the horse ‘series’ is an interpretation of the data. He documents how different pictures of horse evolution were drawn by different evolutionists from the same data, as the concept of evolution itself ‘evolved.’
The non-evolution of the horse

As time goes on, the entire "theory" and I do mean "hypothesis" of evolution might be discarded.

It is a theroy.

Correct.

Why should he be fired? Can a science teacher not be christian? It went against what he believed and what his students believed.

He shouldn't be. It is an example of the intolerance of religious thought in certain segments of society.

When you said that Christianity has it place - home/church. I wanted to clarify that. That is where my thought process came from.

I would not push it on you. But you are in my prayers. :)

Again, excellent answer.

Sincerely,

De Maria

miykle · Dec 11, 2007, 02:27 AM

If you feel so strongly about the influence, on your children, of religion then you best start a campaign to ban CHRISTmas and Easter in case your kids ever ask who Christ is and you would have to tell them, and then they would have to ask why He died on the cross and rose the third day, and you would have to tell them He died to save sinners and that would open a whole box of worms, so best if you have the whole thing banned and tell your kids Xmas has to do with a fat man in a red suit who rides around in a sled pulled by flying reindeer, then they can spend the rest of their life in ignorent oblivien or worse still when they grow up the LOrd God will send them a preacher to tell them the truth and then they will wonder why the Father they loved lied to them for so long. It's a wicked web we weave when we begin with a lie.
Put the salvation of your children before your own conceited ego, if you truly love them that is.
Blessings <M>

Synnen · Dec 11, 2007, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by miykle

If you feel so strongly about the influence, on your children, of religion then you best start a campaign to ban CHRISTmas and Easter in case your kids ever ask who Christ is and you would have to tell them, and then they would have to ask why He died on the cross and rose the third day, and you would have to tell them He died to save sinners and that would open a whole box of worms, so best if you go ahead and have the whole thing banned and tell your kids Xmas has to do with a fat man in a red suit who rides around in a sled pulled by flying reindeer, then they can spend the rest of their life in ignorent oblivien or worse still when they grow up the LOrd God will send them a preacher to tell them the truth and then they will wonder why the Father they loved lied to them for so long. It's a wicked web we weave when we begin with a lie.
Put the salvation of your children before your own conceited ego, if you truley love them that is.
Blessings <M>

My children, Miykle, have no need of salvation.

The goddess loves ALL of her children equally.

PS--I celebrate Solstice, not CHRISTmas, so there's not an issue. Same traditions, different deity.

miykle · Dec 11, 2007, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Synnen

My children, Miykle, have no need of salvation.

The goddess loves ALL of her children equally.

PS--I celebrate Solstice, not CHRISTmas, so there's not an issue. Same traditions, different deity.

"IT IS WRITTEN'
".. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God ; I know not any. They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know,that they may be ashamed."
Isiah 44 : 8 & 9

You will still have to explain why you lied about the fat man in the red suit, goddess or no goddess.

Praying for your heart to be opened <M>

RubyPitbull · Dec 11, 2007, 07:07 AM

miykle, this thread is about people's opinions regarding prayer in school. Please stay on topic. This isn't the place for proselytizing or a discussion about Santa. If you want to spread the word, please begin a new thread under Christianity. If you want to participate in the discussion at hand, state your opinion about prayer in school.

De Maria · Dec 11, 2007, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

miykle, this thread is about people's opinions regarding prayer in school. Please stay on topic. This isn't the place for proselytizing or a discussion about Santa. If you want to spread the word, please begin a new thread under Christianity. If you want to participate in the discussion at hand, state your opinion about prayer in school.

C'mon Pit,

NonChristians have been running ramrod on this thread preaching against and belittling Christianity every chance they get and introducing every anti-Christian topic from abortion to evolution. Suddenly, you jump in and tell a Christian to stay on topic.

Isn't this the Christian forum?

If you are going to enforce the rules, please enforce them fairly.

Sincerely,

De Maria

excon · Dec 11, 2007, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by De Maria

NonChristians have been running ramrod on this thread preaching against and belittling Christianity every chance they get and introducing every anti-Christian topic from abortion to evolution.

Hello again, De Maria:

We're not going to get anywhere. Where I see black, you see white. Where I'M interested in rational discussion - you're interested in proselytizing.

Indeed, I saw nobody belittling Christianity anywhere in this thread. Nope, none at all. I suppose you'll say that I'm one of the biggest belittlers. K, show me.

I see people supporting THEIR positions, and leaving you to believe what YOU want. You, however, see attacks. So does Bill O'Reilly.

But, in fact, there are none. The ONLY attack going on here is against the Constitution.

excon

RubyPitbull · Dec 11, 2007, 09:42 AM

LOL De Maria. I understand what you are saying. I have been trying very tactfully on two previous occasions, to steer people back to topic and to show respect for all opinions. You, yourself have even brought up the topic of Hitler at one point, and a couple of other off topic subjects, but all of it has been in line with the discussion about prayer in school. Not sure why abortion was brought up, but that, along with evolution vs creationism, were also included within the context of the general debate regarding prayer in school, and Christianity as a whole in school. The message in mikle's post doesn't deal with the topic at hand but rather is directed toward Synnen and assuming she is lying to her children about Santa Claus and that she is wrong in her belief system (in quoting scripture).? Yes, this topic was posted in the Christianity forum and non-Christians are going to have to deal with some anger from people when they post less than respectful responses. But, I am greatly enjoying reading your responses and your defense of your position on this topic. Please don't allow this thread to veer so completely off course, that we lose sight of the main discussion.

I will be back at a later time to discuss your suggestion of an elective.

De Maria · Dec 11, 2007, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

LOL De Maria. I understand what you are saying. I have been trying very tactfully on two previous occasions, to steer people back to topic and to show respect for all opinions. You, yourself have even brought up the topic of Hitler at one point, and a couple of other off topic subjects, but all of it has been in line with the discussion about prayer in school. Not sure why abortion was brought up, but that, along with evolution vs creationism, were also included within the context of the general debate regarding prayer in school, and Christianity as a whole in school. The message in mikle's post doesn't deal with the topic at hand but rather is directed toward Synnen and assuming she is lying to her children about Santa Claus and that she is wrong in her belief system (in quoting scripture). ???? Yes, this topic was posted in the Christianity forum and non-Christians are going to have to deal with some anger from people when they post less than respectful responses. But, I am greatly enjoying reading your responses and your defense of your position on this topic. Please don't allow this thread to veer so completely off course, that we lose sight of the main discussion.

I will be back at a later time to discuss your suggestion of an elective.

Good answer, thanks.

Sincerely,

De Maria

RubyPitbull · Dec 11, 2007, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

As democratically as possible.
Perhaps somewhat the way electives are structured today.
I believe parents should oversee the schools. Or at least, I believe the schools are extensions of the parents and should be run that way. I don't believe the government has any business raising our children.
I don't believe it is possible to include everyone in everything. Nor do I believe everyone wants to be included in everything. I think those who can't be included or won't be included could elect something different or enroll in private school.

I am sorry that I seemed to have misunderstood your posts. I was under the impression (I know, never ASSUME;) ) that you had a definitive plan in mind.

Originally Posted by NowWhat

De Maria, Have to disagree with you about parents overseeing the schools. I think that would be a nightmare. Have you ever been to a PTO meeting? (Parent/Teacher Organization) ;)
Nothing would get accomplished. Somebody, one entity needs to be at the head. We all have different views on what should be done and how it should be done.
Is that entity the government? I don't know. But parents, some with limited educations, running the school? Oh my!
I think parents and educators should work TOGETHER for the betterment of the kids. And it is SHOCKING how many parents are NOT involved in the kids education.

NowWhat has brought up some very valid points. We have a problem in this country in which many people can't agree on some of the simplest of things. Obviously, schooling is not simple and a much more complex issue. The sad reality that I see everyday is what NowWhat is referring to. I see many people who do not get involved at all in what is going on with the schools or their children. I moved to a small town 5 years ago. Outwardly the appearance is that of a very attractive town with a closeknit Christian community. A few weeks after I moved here, I found out that there is a huge heroin problem. It is a sad state of affairs.

I am a person who believes we never stop learning. The thought of someone who dropped out of school at 16, and refuses to continue adding to their knowledge base, being instrumental in making educational decisions is a frightening thought to me. Conversely, we have people who just appear to be on power trips, have a desire to control everything, and refuse to listen to others. Those are the people that are going to be diametrically opposed to anything that you or I, or anyone here, suggest. If you have ever been involved with any kind of committee that has people from all walks of life participating, that should give you a good idea of what would happen, but it would be on a much larger scale. Egads! I see too many stalemates happening in that plan, leaving room for very little to get accomplished.

To a certain extent we already have parents involved in the education of our children. We have schoolboards that consist of parents in the community and are supposed to be our monitors. When a big issue arises, meetings are called and the parents that are involved do attend. So, although the curriculum is established by a gov't entity, the parents do have a say if they feel something is not in the best interest of their children. Is it a foolproof plan? No. Lots of room for problems there as well, as we have all seen.

Even though the majority religion of this country is Christianity, it doesn't appear to me that the majority is intent on changing the system to include organized prayer. excon mentioned at one point that the "Pledge of Allegiance" was changed to include "under God" in the pledge in 1954. That was done through an act of Congress. So, it appears that there was enough pressure applied at that time and the factions that wanted it, were able to manage this change. I understand that you would like to see the changes you are talking about, but I also know that you are logical and rational enough to understand that as long as the general population refuses to make those changes, it isn't going to happen.

De Maria · Dec 11, 2007, 02:28 PM

Pit,

I don't know if you intended for dialogue there because I don't see a question. I believe my idea is viable. And that there are many ways besides in which prayer in school can be implemented.

Presuming the school officials know the constituency of their school:

A simple example. Ask the parents, a questionnaire in the mail would suffice, "Do you want prayer in School?"

If yes, which prayers?
Offer predominant options based on constituency.
Add a section for "other prayer":

Assign a place where the students will meet for these prayers first thing in the morning before going to class.

Sincerely,

De Maria

lobrobster · Dec 11, 2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

Pit,

I don't know if you intended for dialogue there because I don't see a question. I believe my idea is viable. And that there are many ways besides in which prayer in school can be implemented.

Presuming the school officials know the constituency of their school:

A simple example. Ask the parents, a questionaire in the mail would suffice, "Do you want prayer in School?"

If yes, which prayers?
Offer predominant options based on constituency.
Add a section for "other prayer":

Assign a place where the students will meet for these prayers first thing in the morning before going to class.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Wait a minute... Are you actually suggesting they pray out loud? As in, "Art Father full of grace, the Lord is with thee....".

Wow, I was just arguing against the concept of silent prayer. This takes things to a whole new level!

RubyPitbull · Dec 11, 2007, 02:52 PM

LOL lob, yes it does.

DeMaria, I didn't have any questions. I was simply stating my opinion based on your previous response.

Well, it sounds like you have some sort of plan. Now, the question (LOL!) becomes, how does it get from just a discussion to being actualized?

De Maria · Dec 11, 2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

LOL lob, yes it does.

DeMaria, I didn't have any questions. I was simply stating my opinion based on your previous response.

Well, it sounds like you have some sort of plan. Now, the question (LOL!) becomes, how does it get from just a discussion to being actualized?

First we have to change the law.:p

Sincerely,

De Maria

RubyPitbull · Dec 11, 2007, 03:05 PM

LOL! You are too funny! I love it!

But, that brings us right back around to what I was stating in my previous post. Who is going to get the law changed? ;)

lobrobster · Dec 11, 2007, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

First we have to change the law.:p

Sincerely,

De Maria

So say a classroom has 23 kids. 10 are Christian, 7 Jewish, 4 Muslim, and 2 atheists.

Since 10 of the kids are Christian, I assume you feel a Christian prayer should be said?

But would you be OK with a few lines from the Koran, and a Jewish blessing as well? Or would this offend you?

And then what if the 2 atheist kids were allowed to recite a few logical conjectures based on overwhelming observable evidence from science? Nah... Let's not get crazy. Why would that belong in a school classroom?

De Maria · Dec 11, 2007, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

So say a classroom has 23 kids. 10 are Christian, 7 Jewish, 4 Muslim, and 2 atheists.

Since 10 of the kids are Christian, I assume you feel a Christian prayer should be said?

But would you be ok with a few lines from the Koran, and a Jewish blessing as well? Or would this offend you?

And then what if the 2 atheist kids were allowed to recite a few logical conjectures based on overwhelming observable evidence from science? Nah... Let's not get crazy. Why would that belong in a school classroom?

As I said, treat it like an elective.

Anyone who wants to pray with Christians, room 1,
Jews, room 2; Muslims, room 3.

Atheists can read a book or do what they elect ; room 4.

Prayer over, go to class.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria · Dec 11, 2007, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

LOL! You are too funny! I love it!

But, that brings us right back around to what I was stating in my previous post. Who is going to get the law changed? ;)

Workin' on it.

RubyPitbull · Dec 11, 2007, 04:09 PM

LOL! Good for you! I will have the doughnuts & coffee at the ready (on the other side of the fence)! ;)

lobrobster · Dec 11, 2007, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

As I said, treat it like an elective.

Anyone who wants to pray with Christians, room 1,
Jews, room 2; Muslims, room 3.

Atheists can read a book or do what they elect ; room 4.

Prayer over, go to class.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well, I got to say that's not a bad way to do it. At least you're being tolerant of other people's beliefs. Again, I have to apologize for not giving you enough credit.

Now the only problem I have is taking up school time for this prayer when it could've/should've been done at home.