[Tj3]

Then please do so.

I named the foremost Lexicon put out by 4 of the foremost scholars. I see no value in providing a long list. After all, if they said something that would lead to scripture saying that homosexuals can change, I am led to wonder if you'd call them all liars also.

[Wondergirl]

Then clearly you have not studied what scripture says. It has plenty to say.

Your misinterpretation only.

So why do you call them all liars

Please track correctly when you read what I write.

when they receive Christ as Saviour and the Holy Spirit frees them from homosexuality?

That has never happened.

[Wondergirl]

I named the foremost Lexicon put out by 4 of the foremost scholars. I see no value in providing a long list. Afterall, if they said something that would lead to scripture saying that homosexuals can change, I am led to wonder if you'd call them all liars also.

You said you could name several Koine experts. I asked for their names, not "a long list."

They won't say homosexuals can change.

[Tj3]

Your misinterpretation only.

Sigh! I am going by what scripture says, taking iot at face value, using the word meanings provided by the Koine Greek experts.

You say that your personal interpretation trumps that. That is why we keep going around in circles. When one person makes themselves a standard unto themselves, not only claiming that their interpretation alone is right, but saying that any homosexual whose personal testimony disagrees is a liar, then there is abolsutely no hope of coming to terms.

To be honest, I'd never send my worst enemy to such a counselor if they needed help to deal with homosexuality. What hope would they have?

when they receive Christ as Saviour and the Holy Spirit frees them from homosexuality?
That has never happened.

It most certainly has. I know from testimonies that I have heard in person, Fred has testified to the same, and we have the testimony in scripture. But you tell us that they are all liars.

[Tj3]

You said you could name several Koine experts. I asked for their names, not "a long list."

They won't say homosexuals can change.

They disagree with you translation of Greek words (i.e. 1 Cor)
r
BTW, how do you know what they believe on this [point? Have you spoken to them personally? Are you saying that if they dare to hold an opinion that disagrees with you, they are liars also?

[Tj3]

Abortion should remain legal.

That is not the topic of this thread.

[Wondergirl]

Sigh! I am going by what scripture says, taking iot at face value, using the word meanings provided by the Koine Greek experts.

No, you aren't. Where are the names of several Koine experts you said you can name?

that is why we keep going around in circles. When one person makes themselves a standard unto themselves, not only claiming that their interpretation alone is right

Yes, it gets harder and harder to discuss this when you do that, doesn't it.

To be honest, I'd never send my worst enemy to such a counselor if they needed help to deal with homosexuality. What hope would they have?

They'd learn how to accept their homosexuality and how to deal with the people who reject them.

It most certainly has. I know from testimonies that I have heard in person, Fred has testified to the same, and we have the testimony in scripture. But you tell us that they are all liars.

Name someone. I want to telephone that person. In fact, give me several names.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I believe that it is very wrong to say that the many people who have changed from homosexuality are all liars.
Pleas refrain for that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
I believe that it is very wrong to say that the many people who have changed from homosexuality are all liars.
Pleas refrain for that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tom says they are liars. I said it is self-report with no scientific proof.

[Wondergirl]

I believe it is also wrong to say that homosexuals need to change their sexual preference. That's like telling someone that it's wrong for them to like chocolate ice cream just because you prefer vanilla ice cream.

I don't want to encourage homosexuals to change who they are. If they are happy with same sex relations then who am I to tell them it's wrong? They're not hurting anyone. I encourage homosexuals to embrace who they are.

Reminds me of all the left-handers who got smacked repeatedly by ruler-wielding teachers years ago when those teachers believed only righthandedness was correct (and lefthandedness was evil).

[Tj3]

Tom says they are liars. I said it is self-report with no scientific proof.

WG,

Kindly be honest. I never said that. Here is the quote FROM YOU from post #137:

"If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie. They are still homosexuals to the core. I could "change" into a homosexual and move to the Bay Area and become a partner to my homosexual friend Laurie, but I am living a lie."

Now if you wish to withdraw your claim that saved homosexuals are liars, then please do so.

[Tj3]

No, you aren't. Where are the names of several Koine experts you said you can name?

I am and have name a few already, but note - you can ignore what I posted and carry on. If you don't care and if you are not willing to look at the evidence (i.e. calling saved homosexuals liars), then where is the value in giving you yet more names? You already told me that the experts would never agree that homosexuals can change, and you don't even know them.

They'd learn how to accept their homosexuality and how to deal with the people who reject them.

And what if they want to obey scripture and become the person that they were created to be?: You'd tell them that they are trapped?

Name someone. I want to telephone that person. In fact, give me several names.

I would suggest calling these people:

Exodus International - Thinking of Leaving Homosexuality?

Living Waters Canada :: Resources

They could likely put you in touch with several. But if you start calling them all liars, I suspect that they will likely not want to carry on the discussion with you for long. I would suggest that you be respectful and listen to what they have to say.

[Wondergirl]

WG,

Kindly be honest. I never said that you did. Here is the quote from post #137:

"If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie. They are still homosexuals to the core. I could "change" into a homosexual and move to the Bay Area and become a partner to my homosexual friend Laurie, but I am living a lie."

Now if you wish to withdraw your claim that saved homosexuals are liars, then please do so.

Ha! You actually took the time and effort to go back and look. Wow!

[Tj3]

Ha! You actually took the time and effort to go back and look. Wow!

That is the 2nd or third time that I quoted you. Now are you going to admit that you said that they are all liars?

And are you going to have the integrity to apologize for claiming that I said it?

[Wondergirl]

WG,

Kindly be honest. I never said that. Here is the quote FROM YOU from post #137:

"If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie. They are still homosexuals to the core. I could "change" into a homosexual and move to the Bay Area and become a partner to my homosexual friend Laurie, but I am living a lie."

Now if you wish to withdraw your claim that saved homosexuals are liars, then please do so.

I will not withdraw. They are still homosexual.

[Tj3]

I will not withdraw. They are still homosexual.

You lied about what you claimed that I said. You do not plan to withdraw or apologize for that false comment?

I really doubt that you will ever meet someone who have received Christ as a homosexual and changed. Because if they are wise, they will stay away from you to avoid being hurt by your nasty remarks that they are liars because they offend what you want to believe about them.

It reminds me of the attitudes of some white Supremacists with respect to non-whites. They have ideas in their head about them and no matter what the facts say to the contrary, they will deny. I find such attitudes quite offensive.

[ukimok]

The reference is correct, and despite the other person’s response, it is clear God does not approve of homosexuality. If it were 'natural' as so many claim it to be, it would not contradict one of God's other directives which was to go forth and multiply. Obviously to men or two women cannot conceive and multiply. That aside, God hates it just as he does lust, or greed, or hate, or gluttony, or any other form of sin. Thus, unless you are perfect, as Jesus was, it is no stranger for a homosexual to desire a relationship with God as it is any other sinner. I am certain my Church was filled this week with folks that don't really deserve God's love or forgiveness. Fortunate for us, God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. He is holy, and therefore cannot be associated with sin. However he loves us, and even while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

Please don't misunderstand me; I am not condoning the behavior. And where most homosexuals trip on this is that they cannot (or will not) differentiate between sinning as an occasional disobedience to God versus a lifestyle. Often homosexuals will embrace a gay lifestyle, and expect God to understand because it is the "way they are wired".

Though I feel for them, this is a poor excuse. Speaking as a heterosexual man, it is "natural" for me to want to have sex with lots of women I find attractive. However, I am married, and therefore have to control my "natural" desires as they would offend God and the covenant relationship I have with my wife. Likewise, the mass murderer could probably make s a case for how he or she was "born that way". However we do not excuse their behavior on that basis.

The truth is we all have selfish desires that offend God, and all of us have to fight against our natural inclinations to lie, cheat, drink, use drugs, cheat on a spouse... our taxes... and so on. God loves homosexuals, God does not approve of their lifestyle, nor will He excuse it, anymore than He will excuse me for cheating on my wife, or even looking at another woman lustfully. That may sound harsh, but don’t confuse harsh for fair. Consider God has given us every provision to overcome our natural desires (what ever they may be) by looking to Him as our strength.

And to the other responder... quit hiding behind the hater tag. It's unproductive bordering on silly to simply call someone speaking an honest and true word a hater just because it does not align with your perspective. After all, if you are preaching tolerance, you must also be tolerant of others views as well. Anything less makes you a hypocrite.

[Wondergirl]

You lied about what you claimed that I said. You do not plan to withdraw or apologize for that false comment?

I really doubt that you will ever meet someone who have received Christ as a homosexual and changed. Because if they are wise, they will stay away from you to avoid being hurt by your nasty remarks that they are liars because they offend what you want to believe about them.

It reminds me of the attitudes of some white Supremacists with respect to non-whites. they have ideas in their head about them and no matter what the facts say to the contrary, they will deny. I find such attitudes quite offensive.

Who are the several Koine scholars you can name for me?

[arcura]

northstar80,
I think that those homosexuals that want to change and do so are doing it because they want to.
Whatever reasons they may have is up to them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Who are the several Koine scholars you can name for me?

Are we going to play this game again? What have you done with the names that I gave you?