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Wondergirl · Oct 31, 2018, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Jesus wept

At what?

jlisenbe · Oct 31, 2018, 03:59 PM

I posted their belief about salvation from their site.

Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."

They are very heavily works oriented. This is what they actually post as their "plan of salvation". It's impossible to find in the Bible.

"We lived with Heavenly Father before this life as His spirit children, and we came to earth to gain a body and to learn and grow and eventually return to Him.

Long before the Creation of this earth, our Heavenly Father provided a plan that made it possible for us, His children, to become like Him. This plan is called the plan of salvation. Understanding this plan gives us greater purpose in life.

Before this mortal life we lived with God as His spirit children, without physical bodies. We chose the Father’s plan, which included the Creation of this earth and provided us the opportunity to come here to gain a body, make choices, develop faith, and accept responsibility for our actions. This allows us to progress beyond what was possible in the spirit world when we lived with God.

Sin and death are also part of mortality. The Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to provide a way to overcome sin and death. This He did through an act called the Atonement. Through Christ’s atoning sacrifice we can repent of our sins and someday live with God and with our families forever.

https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/plan-of-salvation

talaniman · Oct 31, 2018, 04:26 PM

What kind of Christian are you that has the real Christianity?

paraclete · Oct 31, 2018, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

At what?

40“I tell you,” He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.” 41As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes.…

The attitudes of the people, the inability to see the truth

Wondergirl · Oct 31, 2018, 04:42 PM

Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."

If they believe this, the Gospel, the peripheral stuff doesn't matter, does it? If it does, why?

paraclete · Oct 31, 2018, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If they believe this, the Gospel, the peripheral stuff doesn't matter, does it? If it does, why?

But the word doesn't say that, that statement is full of peripheral stuff

Wondergirl · Oct 31, 2018, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

But the word doesn't say that, that statement is full of peripheral stuff

This is full of peripheral stuff?
"...we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."

jlisenbe · Oct 31, 2018, 06:28 PM

remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments.

We do not have a works based gospel. That is where they stray afar from the genuine gospel. It is not peripheral, it is CORE. It is the entire point of the first 8 chapters of Romans and is repeated throughout the NT.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Wondergirl · Oct 31, 2018, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

We do not have a works based Gospel.

So you make no effort to keep God's two greatest commandments, love God and love each other?

Btw, Eph. 2:8,9 are the verses recited by Luther as he rebelled against buying indulgences and then posted his 95 Theses.

jlisenbe · Oct 31, 2018, 07:09 PM

So you make no effort to keep God's two greatest commandments, love God and love each other?

Being obedient to God is certainly important, but works are not a part of our salvation, they are the fruit of it. We all want our children to do chores around the house, but they do not become our children by doing them. Rather, they do them because they are our children. The order in which things happen is important.

I think you're just being argumentative. You know these things.

As every good student of Luther (including you) knows, this verse in Romans was his real eye-opener. Romans 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed-a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Wondergirl · Oct 31, 2018, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Being obedient to God is certainly important, but works are not a part of our salvation, they are the fruit of it.

So we have to be careful to say that just right, that we obey the two greatest Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because it is our thank-you to Him.

As every good student of Luther (including you) knows, this verse in Romans was his real eye-opener.

Nope, never connected Luther with the Romans verse. It has always been the Ephesians verse. (Psssst, I was born on Luther's birthday, but in a different year. :D)

Oh, and Eph. 2:10 says, For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

jlisenbe · Oct 31, 2018, 08:12 PM

So we have to be careful to say that just right, that we obey the two greatest Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because it is our thank-you to Him.

How it's said is not as important as how it's understood, and yes that is important.

Created FOR good works, but not saved BY good works. The difference is enormous. A sinful man can never work his way into God's favor any more than a murderer can work his way into a judge's favor.

paraclete · Nov 1, 2018, 05:44 AM

Ah religious debates how they rage

talaniman · Nov 1, 2018, 07:59 AM

So the dufus and his sycophants are likely going to hell right?

jlisenbe · Nov 1, 2018, 08:12 AM

So are you if you are not right with God by faith in Jesus.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"

Wondergirl · Nov 1, 2018, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Created FOR good works, but not saved BY good works. The difference is enormous. A sinful man can never work his way into God's favor any more than a murderer can work his way into a judge's favor.

Yup. That was Luther's main thesis.

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So are you if you are not right with God by faith in Jesus.

So there will be only Baptists in Heaven, maybe with a few Methodists and Lutherans? And it sounds like no Mormons, and certainly not Muslims and Hindi and Catholics.

Athos · Nov 1, 2018, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So are you if you are not right with God by faith in Jesus.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"

It never ceases to amaze me how Bible fundies condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe the way the fundies do. Of course, they say they don't condemn anyone, the condemned themselves do it by not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior.

And in case, you're still not sure, well, the Bible says so!!

What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century.

jlisenbe · Nov 1, 2018, 12:58 PM

So there will be only Baptists in Heaven, maybe with a few Methodists and Lutherans? And it sounds like no Mormons, and certainly not Muslims and Hindi and Catholics.

So says you. I haven't said that. I did paste a scripture from the Bible you say you believe. What part of it do you disagree with?

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"

It never ceases to amaze me how Bible fundies condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe the way the fundies do. Of course, they say they don't condemn anyone, the condemned themselves do it by not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior.

And in case, you're still not sure, well, the Bible says so!!

What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century.

And we should believe that because, after all, you believe it. Thus saith Athos.

Wondergirl · Nov 1, 2018, 01:54 PM

[and all] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice.

jlisenbe · Nov 1, 2018, 02:15 PM

I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice.

OK. Sounds like you are a believer in universal salvation, which of course would have to include Stalin, Hitler, and even Donald Trump(sorry, Tal). But if universal redemption is what is meant, then what does this mean?

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.