[paraclete]

They have a more symathetic view of the world, Tom, having experienced the excesses of the right they don't quickly espouse right wing ideologies, however obviously they don't shirk from fighting for what they believe. You fail to see that being against something doesn't mean endorsement of your ideology. The enemy of my enemy is my friend only goes so far, and this is such a situation. Israel has many friends because they are against their enemies, but we have now seen that Israel doesn't endorse policies that reduce tensions

[ballengerb1]

"Peace in our time." is what Chamberlain came home with from Germany

[tomder55]

They have a more symathetic view of the world, Tom, having experienced the excesses of the right they don't quickly espouse right wing ideologies, however obviously they don't shirk from fighting for what they believe. You fail to see that being against something doesn't mean endorsement of your ideology. The enemy of my enemy is my friend only goes so far, and this is such a situation. Israel has many friends because they are against their enemies, but we have now seen that Israel doesn't endorse policies that reduce tensions

maybe because Israel is in an existential threat that the rest of the world isn't . But I wasn't just talking about Israel . Jews in America at least live "Republican " lives but vote Democrat.Even though there has been a slight change in this since the reign of the emperor began ,there is still a 32-point gap separating Democratic and Republican party identification among Jews.

It doesn't make sense .Jewish law permits abortion only to protect the life of the mother; it forbids homosexual sex ; and it prohibits suicide (except when the only alternatives are forced conversion or incest).In every instance of a clash between Jewish law and contemporary liberalism, it is the liberal creed that prevails for most American Jews.

[NeedKarma]

it is the liberal creed that prevails for most American Jews.

Because those jews are educated and enlightened.

Look at the 2016 candidates - who the hell wants to be associated with a party that fields that???

[talaniman]

This isn't about Israel, its about VOTES in the house and senate to override Obama's VETO. The repubs NEED dems, plain and simple. Netty was a fool to run to the repubs hollering just because Obama was their enemy too. He gambled and will lose because in truth, they cannot STOP the plan, even if they had the votes because no one in the entire world will join us in keeping international sanctions going, and ours against Iran will be ignored, and ineffective.

By the way, the same debate rages in Iran.

It doesn't make sense .Jewish law permits abortion only to protect the life of the mother; it forbids homosexual sex ; and it prohibits suicide (except when the only alternatives are forced conversion or incest)

Every major religion does that, but it's okay if you are a Jew, or Christian but not a Muslim? The whole argument on religion is a strawman argument, and has little to do with the law, or acceptable behavior.

[paraclete]

Tal if people really followed the moral laws of their religion the world would be a better place, but abortion is an invention of man, war is an invention of man, need I go on? Israel is not a religious society, the US is not a religious society, they consider themselves enlightened, well they are enlightened enough to kill babies, enlightened enough to kill those who oppose them, and the whole world is besotted with the idea that man is superior.

[tomder55]

This isn't about Israel, its about VOTES in the house and senate to override Obama's VETO.

Of course it is . That's why your attack on Shumer accusing him of being beholden to a lobby or a constituency was so off base .....or was it ?

Now that I've praised him let me bury him. Announcing his opposition is all well and good. But he's in a position in the Senate to have a huge impact on this vote. His lack of rallying hard for other Senate Democrats to join him is inexcusably insufficient given his opposition to the deal. If he truly wants the deal defeated then he has to make a better effort to defeat it beyond announcing his opposition. Schumer saying that while he will "try to persuade" other Senate Democrats is not good enough . He did not get where he is by trying to persuade. He got where he is by doing some serious arm twisting . He was the chief fund raiser for the Dems in the last 2 election cycles . That means he holds many IOUs in his pockets .
Any effort less than that will show me that his announced opposition is just pandering.

[tomder55]

so how much of a stimulus will this be to the Iranian economy . If we go by the emperor's own words ,it is an infusion of $150 billion . By comparison ,in today's dollars ,the Marshall plan to rebuild all of Western Europe was $120 billion over a 4 year period .

[paraclete]

You keep forgetting that it is their money, and unlike the Marshall Plan they will spend it where they want, which might be a nuclear reactor or might be to upgrade their air defenses. The thing is, some of the hatred of the US might just be lost in the changes in their society and maybe they will spend it on defeating Daesh and save you the money, or perhaps they will start a war with your friends the Saudi, who were backing Daesh. Life is a lottery, but it is unlikely they will attack Israel immediately. They may be sensible enough to know you can only fight one successful war at a time and Israel should consider how they can negotiate with the palestinians and take the heat out of one debate while attention is on Syria and Daesh

[tomder55]

What you don't get is that the people of Iran want the changes in their society from the pre-modern society the 12ers brought with their revolution. If the Ayatollah Asshola had told them the truth about his vision of Iran ,the people would not have revolted in the 1st place. The people do not hate the US ;only the 12ers do.

The emperor thinks the money will be used to "fundamentally transform " Iran . All it will do is make them homicidal apocalyptic terrorists with nukes .

[paraclete]

The emperor thinks the money will be used to "fundamentally transform " Iran . All it will do is make them homicidal apocalyptic terrorists with nukes .

Tom what you have is a picture if where the Iranian leadership might be without a deal. You argue that they are already "homicidal apocalyptic terrorists" however the only evidence you have of tha is that they have supported "homicidal apocalyptic terrorists" in Gaza and Lebanon and it is very possible your own nation could be accused of the same thing"


The " homicidal apocalyptic terrorists" are Daesh whom the Iranians oppose yet your alllies the Saudi and Turkey can be shown to have supported them. What is the problem here is your republicans are miffed that a reason for a war has been taken away and so there will be no war profits. You are on the wrong side Tom you are actually supporting Daesh

[talaniman]

He said a lot more than that Tom.

CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS EXCLUSIVE: President Barack Obama on the P+5 Iran deal – CNN Press Room - CNN.com Blogs

...And part of the function of our meeting up at Camp David with Gulf leaders was to describe how we can work with them to create a more effective counter to these kinds of activities....

[excon]

Hello again,

What I wanna know, is what's the right wing plan AFTER the deal is rejected???? You KNOW we can't go back to the table.. You KNOW there are no mulligans in diplomacy.. You KNOW our allies won't go back to the table.

Other than war, what is your plan?

excon

[talaniman]

"Bomb-bomb bomb...bomb bomb Iran....."/John McCain and his right winger singers/2007

That's always been the plan, just ask Netty.

[tomder55]

Hello again,
You KNOW we can't go back to the table.. Other than war, what is your plan?

excon

of course we can . Reagan walked away at Reykjavik and because of that got a better deal. My plan ? I would put even more pressure on the regime to come to the table with some concessions. But they didn't because they knew that the emperor took all out leverage off the table ,and Kerry is desperate to get a Nobel Peace Prize.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

Nahhh... Your history is misremembered. Reagan walked away BEFORE he made a deal. It matters..

excon

PS> Look, my friend.. I don't believe for a minute that you misremembered that fact... You want war, and you want PUNISHING war... Why are you afraid to SAY it?? Lindsey Graham isn't.

[talaniman]

The basic difference was back in the day the summit was about two superpowers, talking to each other, now we have three superpowers (and a few more) on the same side against a regional second tier(?) wanna be.

Why do you guys keep leaving out the other negotiating partners?

[tomder55]

Hello again, tom:

Nahhh... Your history is misremembered. Reagan walked away BEFORE he made a deal. It matters..

excon

PS> Look, my friend.. I don't believe for a minute that you misremembered that fact... You want war, and you want PUNISHING war... Why are you afraid to SAY it?? Lindsey Graham isn't.

Yes Reagan was smart enough to walk away from a deal where the country was going to get hosed . Clearly the emperor and Kerry aren't smart enough ;and clearly the Senate surrendered it's constitutional role in the process. So what I say is what I would've done. I would've supported the Green Revolution in 2009 when the 12ers stole the election . I would've been hardline at the negotiation table because that was the best way to AVOID war . What you fail the realize is that this deal makes a bigger badder war MORE LIKELY not less.

The basic difference was back in the day the summit was about two superpowers, talking to each other, now we have three superpowers (and a few more) on the same side against a regional second tier(?) wanna be.

Why do you guys keep leaving out the other negotiating partners?

They surrendered too . (except China a Russia ...they got exactly what they wanted )

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I woulda done things differently too, but that's NOT the question. We ARE where we ARE. If NOT war, WHAT is your plan?

excon

[tomder55]

My plan is to reject this deal in Congress ;refuse to allow Banks to release Iranian funds ,and suggest to them that if they want something else ;they 'd better come to the table with a workable proposal that guarantees no notice on site inspection of ALL suspected nuclear sites .