[tickle]

HI 450donn, what failed health care system in Canada ? I have lived here all my life and now 66, there is no failed health care system as far as I know, and I would be the first to know, not only benefiting from socialized medicine, but working in the healthcare sector.

ms. tickle

[jjwoodhull]

I disagree with your assessment. Neither Tom Ridge nor Joe Lieberman would have energized the conservative base. I don't know how many I speak for, but I seriously considered sitting this one out until Palin came on board. Conservatives are really tired of left of center politicans being touted as conservative. They are only conservative in relation to the far left. Palin is a breath of fresh air, and I hope we get to see her further involved in the political process.

I guess I was speaking for myself. While he would have lost your vote, he would have gained mine.

[spitvenom]

I was actually nervous that he may pick Ridge I think McCain would have definitely won PA with Ridge. When he announced Palin as his VP it just put a big smile on my face.

[450donn]

hI 450donn, what failed health care system in Canada ? I have lived here all my life and now 66, there is no failed health care system as far as I know, and I would be the first to know, not only benefiting from socialized medicine, but working in the healthcare sector.

ms. tickle

OK if as you say the health care system is just fine then please tell me why Canadian doctors and nurses are leaving Canada in droves to set up practice here in the USA? Why is it that those that can afford it come south of the border for surgeries that the Canadian system says they cannot have. Or are delayed for 12 to 16 weeks? If the system is so good, why is it that in many small towns across Canada the clinics are only open one or two days a week? How much of your goros salary goes for the health care system in Canada?

Believe me I am not trying to be argumentative, I would like to be enlightened!

[excon]

Hello 450:

I'd be curious what your sources are for the data you present. Surely there have been studies. Which ones say that? I'm not trying to argue. I would like to be enlightened.

excon

[NeedKarma]

OK if as you say the health care system is just fine then please tell me why Canadian doctors and nurses are leaving Canada in droves to set up practice here in the USA?

Leaving in droves? I don't see that and I have people in medecine in my family AND I work for the government. What makes you say that?

Why is it that those that can afford it come south of the border for surgeries that the Canadian system says they cannot have.

What surgeries are those? Yes those with money explore their options, no question about that but please supply stats from sources for your allegations and be precise about which operations.

If the system is so good, why is it that in many small towns across Canada the clinics are only open one or two days a week?

This proves that you have no idea how our system works. I live in a smallish town and I have 2 hospitals and 3 clinics to choose from... and that's when it's after hours at my GP's office.

How much of your goros salary goes for the health care system in Canada?

Yup, we pay for our benefit and we like it. It's a bid weigh of our backs. We see our americans friends spending hours and days gathering paperwork and begging to have a procedure covered by their insurance. And then there's the lawyers and the court time...

Believe me I am not trying to be argumentative, I would like to be enlightened!

No I think you like to be argumentative.

[asking]

By the way, in case you all didn't see this. The median income for plumbers is $42,000, an income group that Obama carried by 10 points. He likewise carried those who make more than $200,000 a year by 6 points.

And of course 66% of 18-29 year olds voted for him.

This American Moment — The Surprises - Timothy Egan Blog - NYTimes.com

[JBeaucaire]

I'd be curious what your sources are for the data you present. Surely there have been studies. Which ones say that? I'm not trying to argue. I would like to be enlightened.

No I think you like to be argumentative.

Maybe he does, but you didn't answer his question either. Would you mind pointing out your sources. I'm interested in reading up on that as well... and you sound informed. Can you point them out to us?

[NeedKarma]

JB,
You might want to edit your post, the inner quote is from excon not from 450donn. And yes, I too am waiting for his sources.

[tickle]

I only know one thing. I didn't work for l0 years being a caregiver for an elderly parent and I never had to worry about going to a doctor, or hospital. It was all covered, but I do recall when I did work that my employer paid my OHIP l00%. And by the way, now that I am over 65 my OHIP coverage gives me my meds at $2.66 each 90 count prescription. Same as anyone over 65 in Canada.

I chose to work past 65 so still working and don't pay any healthcare premiums and am not required to.

Our OHIP information is public record and can be googled in case anyone wants to to do some investigating and record seeking.

I live in a small town in Ontario and we have a state of the art hospital, a pretty good emergency care service there as well, so don't really need after hour clinics, however, there are two available within a 25 min. drive.

I am too, as some here know, in the healthcare sector and I have never heard of a mass exodus from Canada of Doctors and Nurses.

As for surgery in the States, yes, I have some elderly clients who have the money and time to seek quick care over the border. That is their option and nothing to do with being unable to have elective care done here.

[450donn]

here are a few links that you can read at your leisure.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007 - 80kwww.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705 - 92k - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/in.../28canada.html thetyee.ca/News/2006/04/11/CanadasHealthCareCrisis/ - 41kwww.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/Exprts_intrvw/s_glied.htm - 45k

[tickle]

450donn, I don't know why you are so hell bent to prove our healthcare system flawed, or in some cases non existent. Yes, I read the articles you put up. I liked the one about the woman who was diagnosed with sleep apnea but had to wait four months for treatment. We have a sleep clinic in town and people diagnosed with sleep apnea are treated right away. It is right next door to our after hours clinic; and the one about the lady waiting for cancer treatment. Kingston is our nearest cancer treatment centre where I live, and my clients go there throughout the week (and can stay in a hostel or go back home) after being treated. Another cancer treatment attached to Oshawa General Hospital.

I am secure in my knowledge of our healthcare system and know I will be treated properly when and if the time comes.

Now again, why do you want to prove that our heathcare system doesn't work ?

[NeedKarma]

Plus a lot of those articles are op-ed pieces, not studies. Yes, we are considering a limited public/private setup is certain instances, but at least we don't have 40 million people without access to healthcare for fear of bankruptcy. Canadians love Canadians, what can I say.

[asking]

why do you want to prove that our heathcare system doesnt work ?

This is a really good question. I'm hoping 450donn answers it.

Maybe because the thought that it doesn't have to be the way it is in the US is unacceptable? It would be easier to accept that the problems with our system are simply a tradeoff, different problems.

People can often accept what is inevitable. But our health care system only works for some of the people some of the time, and it's problems are not all inevitable, except as a consequence of greed. I remember in the 80s, the major American HMOs had so much cash that Wall Street was trying to guess where they were going to put it because all that cash was expected to move the market.

[inthebox]

Featured Article - WSJ.com

Yes, an opinion piece quoting the a Canadian supreme court judge:

"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care," wrote Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin for the 4-3 Court last week. Canadians wait an average of 17.9 weeks for surgery and other therapeutic treatments, according the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute. The waits would be even longer if Canadians didn't have access to the U.S. as a medical-care safety valve. Or, in the case of fortunate elites such as Prime Minister Paul Martin, if they didn't have access to a small private market in some non-core medical services. Mr. Martin's use of a private clinic for his annual checkup set off a political firestorm last year.

More info on gov healthcare - note that this is in Obama's own home state:

Durbin: Second Surgeon under Investigation at Illinois VA Hospital  (10-29-2007)

Durbin and Obama have publicly voiced their dissatisfaction with the VA’s response to pointed questions about how the agency handled a background check before hiring Veizaga-Mendez. The senators also are concerned about the overall quality of care veterans get at the hospital and perhaps elsewhere in the VA system

Gov/ Va can't compete with private sector pay for specialists so they really have chronic scarcity and trouble retaining specialists.

If "Universal healthcare" can't compete on the basis of salary or on the basis of benefits and lifestyle issues [ less hours, less call ] - the next generation of college undergrads will not be willing to take on hundred's of thousands of dollars in debt, 7 years of delayed gratification and hard work... to be doctors.

[450donn]

I do not want to prove anything. You Canadians/Germans/French/Brits that have a government run health care system you are happy with , then God bless you and your system. Now, please ask yourself why is it that so many doctors come to the USA to practice their trade? Certainally not for the food!

[excon]

Hello 450:

I know you're not asking me, but I got time on my hands today...

I don't disagree with you, that when people have been used to making a lot of money, and that's taken away from them, they'll go to where they CAN make the money again...

But, not ALL of 'em will. Surely you believe our friends from the North. There ARE still enough doctors there.

If you're pointing out dangers of socialized medicine, tell me how you would protect the 47 million or so un-insured people here in THIS country?? If your solution is to do NOTHING, then that's no solution at all. EVEN McCain was going to cover them.

Of course, those 47 million people DO get medical care - at the emergency room - at about 10 times what it would cost if we insured them...

excon

[inthebox]

Through Bush's HSA's they can set aside pretax money for healthcare. With McCain's proposal to have tax credits to offset the purchase of health insurance on an individual basis, and to have ins. Co compete nationally not just regionally.

Some individuals [ mainly the young ] choose to go without health insurance. Some individuals don't have employer based health insurance.

And who pays for unisured medical costs?

First the hospitals, doctors, nurses and staff who provide the service and don't get paid, second its passed on to those who have insurance in the form of higher costs / premiums.

Any comments on the VA or the Canadian supreme court decision? - facts unfortunantly - not just opinions.

[450donn]

If and that is a big IF there are actually 47 million people without health care do you realize how much it would cost us ( the average working person) and as a nation to cover these so called uninsured? How many of them are illegal's? How many of them choose not to take the coverage offered by their employers? And finally how many of this 47 million simply refuse to work? See, I look at if more from a biblical prospective. Families should take care of their parents instead of shoveling them off to some government paid for nursing home. See, my daughter has one child with major medical problems, both physical and mental. Instead of going to the government to take the burden of this child, they went out and purchased health insurance for her. This in a single income household. Son in law worked hard and got a better job with fantastic health coverage so they are now taken care of. It can be done in a free society. If Government were to take over the health care system, she could have possibly been covered, but what incentive would there be to take care of this child in the parents minds? And what level of care could she have received for the rest of her life? Any health care system whether private or public will have limits on the amount of care you can receive. It is just that a public system might have lower limits and that would means that certain people with major health issues might still be shut out.
Another good example, my wife just went back to work after over 4 months off for a major illness. Two trips to the hospital totaling 19 days, 5 of those in intensive care unit. Two surgeries and possible another one in the near future. How would she have been treated under a public system? I don't know, and I certainally don't want to find out. I nearly lost her once. My fear is that under a public system she would have died.

[inthebox]

Times acquires tape excerpts showing King-Harbor staff ignoring dying patient - Los Angeles Times

Public funded county hospital