On Leviticus

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Who are you to insult so many men and women who have had the courage to come to Christ and submit their choice of orientation to Him.

The truth will eventually come out. If anything, such a person is bisexual. Human sexuality is very fluid.

How many have "changed"?

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The truth will eventually come out. If anything, such a person is bisexual. Human sexuality is very fluid.

How many have "changed"?

Who knows? Over the centuries it is thousands, tens of thousands or millions.

No one deserves to be called a liar because they wish to be obedient to God and allow Him to change them to what He created them to be.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Who knows? Over the centuries it is thousands, tens of thousands or millions.

Give me a break! There is a HUGE payoff if a bisexual or even homosexual claims to have been "changed." Suddenly he gets accepted into a church body of fundamentalist/evangelical Christians, is high-fived left and right, is considered saved, and is told he will enter heaven someday.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Give me a break! There is a HUGE payoff if a bisexual or even homosexual claims to have been "changed."

And without even knowing these people, you are prepared to label them all as liars.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

And without even knowing these people, you are prepared to label them all as liars.

Where are the scientific studies, or are they all self-report?

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Where are the scientific studies, or are they all self-report?

The fact is that there are no scientific studies which say that homosexual are homosexual at birth. I do not plan to look them up right now, but in reality the onus would be on you in any case to prove that that homosexuals are born that way, and this to try to validate your vcliam that all ex-homosexuals are, as you suggest - liars.

But I note that you are now changing the subject.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

The fact is that there are no scientific studies which say that homosexual are homosexual at birth. I do not plan to look them up right now, but in reality the onus would be on you in any case to prove that that homosexuals are born that way, and this to try to validate your vcliam that all ex-homosexuals are, as you suggest - liars.

But I note that you are now changing the subject.

Nice twist!

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:10 PM

Many published reports of "successful" conversion therapies are unreliable in that the participants' initial sexual orientation was never adequately assessed. Many bisexuals have been mislabeled as homosexuals with the consequence that the "successes" reported for the conversions actually have occurred among bisexuals who were highly motivated to adopt a heterosexual behavior pattern.

Studies on "reparative therapy" are simply compilations of self-reports from psychoanalysts who are attempting to change their patients' sexual orientation (and who are highly motivated to report "success").

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Many published reports of "successful" conversion therapies are unreliable in that the participants' initial sexual orientation was never adequately assessed. Many bisexuals have been mislabeled as homosexuals with the consequence that the "successes" reported for the conversions actually have occurred among bisexuals who were highly motivated to adopt a heterosexual behavior pattern.

Studies on "reparative therapy" are simply compilations of self-reports from psychoanalysts who are attempting to change their patients' sexual orientation (and who are highly motivated to report "success").

So what we are left with is the personal testimonies of those who once were homosexuals and the testimonies of God's word that in fact homosexuality is a sin and that the power of God can change homosexuals.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

So what we are left with is the personal testimonies of those who once were homosexuals

Testimonies = self-reports

the testimonies of God's word that in fact homosexuality is a sin and that the power of God can change homosexuals.

That's not what those Bible passages are talking about.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Testimonies = self-reports

And you say that the ones that agree with you are from honest homosexuals and those that disagree with you are from liars.

Sound like discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation to me, if you think that all former homosexuals are liars.

That's not what those Bible passages are talking about.

So you claim. The experts in Koine Greek disagree.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Sound like discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation to me, if you think that all former homosexuals are liars.

Your choice of words, not mine.

So you claim. The experts in Koine Greek disagree.

Akoue and I have both gone 'round and 'round the block on this one.

Jesus said nothing on the subject. There is not a single word in the Gospels about any type of same-sex sexual activity. Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality. Jesus' silence on this particular subject is worthy of note.

There is no word in the original language of either the Old or New Testament that can be properly translated "homosexual" or "homosexuality". If this word is used in your translation, the translators themselves have inserted it. It is not in the original Hebrew or Greek texts. Again, there is no reference in the Bible to homosexual orientation. One can only conclude that homosexual orientation was not a concern to Jesus, to the writers of the Bible materials, or to the societies in which they lived. Whenever same-sex references are made in the Bible, they are always references to some particular heterosexual act in the context of temple rituals that involve rape or prostitution.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Your choice of words, not mine.

Not really. In post 137, you made the charge, when you said, and I quote:

"If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie."

Jesus said nothing on the subject. There is not a single word in the Gospels about any type of same-sex sexual activity. Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality. Jesus' silence on this particular subject is worthy of note.

He did not need to. The Jews of His day would know the OT and would know that homosexuality is a sin.

There is no word in the original language of either the Old or New Testament that can be properly translated "homosexual" or "homosexuality".

Your claim. Koine Greek experts disagree.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Not really. In post 137, you made the charge, when you said, and I quote:

"If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie."

Um, my point was (since you apparently missed it) that there is no such thing as a "changed" homosexual. Bisexual, maybe, possibly. Homosexual, no.

He did not need to. The Jews of His day would know the OT and would know that homosexuality is a sin.

I repeat: Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality.

Your claim. Koine Greek experts disagree.

Name one.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Um, my point was (since you apparently missed it) that there is no such thing as a "changed" homosexual. Bisexual, maybe, possibly. Homosexual, no.

That is what I am saying is insulting. Who are you to suggest that these thousands of people are all liars simply because they have chosen to follow Christ's lead rather than believe you.

I repeat: Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality.

Every reference in scripture is Jesus' word - The Bible is the word of God, and Jesus is the word made flesh.

Or are you now going to tell me that you don't believe that Jesus is God?

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

That is what I am saying is insulting. Who are you to suggest that these thousands of people are all liars simply because they have chosen to follow Christ's lead rather than believe you.

Wait, wait, wait! Name a Koine expert first. That's the request currently on the table.

Every reference in scripture is Jesus word - The Bible is the word of God, and Jesus is the word made flesh. Or are you now going to tell me that you don't believe that Jesus is God?

What an outré segue!

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Wait, wait, wait! Name a Koine expert first. That's the request currently on the table.

I could name several. I used BGAD (considered the foremost Lexicon used by Greek Scholars and translators) when we were last discussing this.

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:55 PM

When someone asks what the Bible says about homosexuality, my most honest answer is: "Nothing!" So how to deal with today's homosexuals? God is love and we are supposed to love God with all that is in us and our (gay/lesbian/bisexual/ heterosexual/transgender) neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-40).

Wondergirl · Mar 8, 2009, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I could name several.

Then please do so.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

When someone asks what the Bible says about homosexuality, my most honest answer is: "Nothing!"

Then clearly you have not studied what scripture says. It has plenty to say.

So how to deal with today's homosexuals? God is love and we are supposed to love God with all that is in us and our (gay/lesbian/bisexual/ heterosexual/transgender) neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-40).

So why do you call them all liars when they receive Christ as Saviour and the Holy Spirit frees them from homosexuality?