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jlisenbe · Dec 16, 2019, 10:48 AM

Taxes are not the totality of revenues. Just HALF so where does the rest come from and more importantly who holds the wealth and who pays the bills?

Well, it's not hard to find out. Most fed revenue for non Social Security expenses comes from personal and corporate income taxes. A much smaller amount comes from other taxes such as inheritance and excise taxes. A good chunk comes from SS taxes which we voting citizens very stupidly have allowed the crooks (dems and repubs) in the fed govt to use for non Social Security purposes with the result that the SS non-Trust Fund has nothing in it other than IOU's. Still, the wealthy pay most of the federal taxes in this country. It is just simply true.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/policy...nues-come-from

talaniman · Dec 16, 2019, 11:00 AM

If you have loopholes, deductions, and tax havens, then paying taxes isn't such a big deal since you only pay on a portion of your income. That is also simply true.

jlisenbe · Dec 16, 2019, 12:00 PM

then paying taxes isn't such a big deal since you only pay on a portion of your income. That is also simply true.

You do realize that you're only supposed to pay "a portion of your income" into income tax? Do you want the feds to take all of it?

As to deductions, everyone gets deductions. Deductions for charitable donations, children and excessive med expenses, for instance. But you would be able to talk me into a flat tax with very few allowable deductions.

talaniman · Dec 16, 2019, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You do realize that you're only supposed to pay "a portion of your income" into income tax? Do you want the feds to take all of it?

That would solve the deficit lol, but the wealthy can shield half if not more of their income from ANY taxation and have deductions for the rest. You realize that such tax havens exist for them and have always existed for them and is that paying a fair share even if according to you they do pay the most on taxes? Logically those with the most income should pay the most in taxes.

You still have not articulated my other peeve about cutting taxes when the economy is so great. That is illogical to me just as a matter of fiscal policy. Logically you should be raising revenue, paying your debts, and spending less and preparing for the next recession (Refer to provided link in last post).

As to deductions, everyone gets deductions. Deductions for charitable donations, children and excessive med expenses, for instance. But you would be able to talk me into a flat tax with very few allowable deductions.

Some deductions for some people are worth a lot more than others in my humble opinion. I cannot afford a flat tax on top of my states SALES tax. What a great way to diminish my buying power. You trying to make me live on cat food? I still bristle at the thought that Mitt Romney pays less taxes than his secretary. I guess being able to afford those lawyers and accountants really pays off.

jlisenbe · Dec 16, 2019, 03:07 PM

That would solve the deficit lol, but the wealthy can shield half if not more of their income from ANY taxation and have deductions for the rest. You realize that such tax havens exist for them and have always existed for them and is that paying a fair share even if according to you they do pay the most on taxes? Logically those with the most income should pay the most in taxes.

Your first statement is just laughable. To listen to you, they pay no taxes which is plainly ludicrous. As to the second statement, it is not according to me. I have given you a boatload of links so you're just being intentionally ignorant. And for the third statement, THEY ARE PAYING THE MOST NOW SO WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT???!!!

You still have not articulated my other peeve about cutting taxes when the economy is so great. That is illogical to me just as a matter of fiscal policy. Logically you should be raising revenue, paying your debts, and spending less and preparing for the next recession (Refer to provided link in last post).

When Trump cut taxes, the economy was still the tepid Obama economy. He cut taxes and the economy took off. Income tax revenue has actually increased, not decreased, and is considerably higher than during the Obama years. But I do get your point. We should have balanced the budget first, but no one is really interested in that.

I cannot afford a flat tax on top of my states SALES tax. What a great way to diminish my buying power. You trying to make me live on cat food?

The liberal battle cry. RAISE TAXES BUT RAISE THEM ON SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN ME!! My friend, there is not enough available tax revenue from the wealthy to take without destroying the economy. Spending will have to be cut and I don't mean a little, and you, I, and the rest of the middle class is going to be hit. Just a matter of time. Think Greece.

paraclete · Dec 16, 2019, 03:57 PM

Just a matter of time. Think Greece.

Think Venezuela, Argentina, when the economy collapses everything goes, there isn't enough money in the world to bail you out

jlisenbe · Dec 16, 2019, 04:54 PM

there isn't enough money in the world to bail you out

I heard on the news today that world-wide debt is over 200 trillion. If that's true, then no one gets out unscathed when it all goes down.

paraclete · Dec 16, 2019, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I heard on the news today that world-wide debt is over 200 trillion. If that's true, then no one gets out unscathed when it all goes down.

I didn't doubt you would take us all with you, what price utopia now?

talaniman · Dec 17, 2019, 08:05 AM

Wonder what the dufus will do if it goes down on his watch? Of course only he can fix it, and we have nothing to lose, so what's the problem Clete? We just cut you losers loose and learn to talk Russian, or Chinese, and let the rich guys bail us out at a discount price. Or maybe we bail the world out at full price.

No biggie, the dufus has things under control right JL?

jlisenbe · Dec 17, 2019, 08:43 AM

I didn't doubt you would take us all with you, what price utopia now?

We are far from being the only country carrying a ridiculous amount of debt, and that includes your beloved Australia. World wide debt is just absurd. Take a look.

https://moneyinc.com/20-countries-currently-debt/

talaniman · Dec 17, 2019, 03:21 PM

We are not responsible for what other countries do about their affairs, just ours, but given nothing has been done about it here, and I don't see any elected officials with any good ideas, or the will to even holler about it (Except you JL 8D), then the whole discussion becomes, when the crap hits the fan, maybe we get some action. Until then I can stand a few bucks while everybody's hand is in the till too!

jlisenbe · Dec 17, 2019, 03:33 PM

Until then I can stand a few bucks while everybody's hand is in the till too!

I suspect you say that jokingly and I get that, but honestly, that attitude is widespread and is the source of the problem. We have come to view the feds as a giant money tree that we can just pull fruit from whenever we like. Our elected officials have no honor in acknowledging that it is the money gathered from taxpayers and should be spent responsibly. We do not care about our children, and we certainly do not care about our grandchildren. Aside from the horror of abortion, it is the great sin of our nation. It's a reflection of the stupid, selfish, and careless people we have become.

Except you JL 8D

I take that as an extreme compliment.

talaniman · Dec 17, 2019, 03:57 PM

Armies, boats and planes are expensive for sure, and as long as others have them, so must we. I see no way around that SAFELY.

jlisenbe · Dec 17, 2019, 04:29 PM

Armies, boats and planes are expensive for sure, and as long as others have them, so must we. I see no way around that SAFELY.

That's a fair point, but I do think it could be cut if we learned to mind our own business. Three points to consider:

1. Defense spending is only 15% of the budget, so we can't blame our deficits on that.
2. We spend as much on defense as the next 9 nations COMBINED. Surely we could cut some.
3. Do you see the irony in this? You, the liberal, are arguing to continue defense spending. I, the conservative, am arguing to cut defense spending. The whole world is going crazy!!

paraclete · Dec 17, 2019, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's a fair point, but I do think it could be cut if we learned to mind our own business. Three points to consider:

1. Defense spending is only 15% of the budget, so we can't blame our deficits on that.
2. We spend as much on defense as the next 9 nations COMBINED. Surely we could cut some.
3. Do you see the irony in this? You, the liberal, are arguing to continue defense spending. I, the conservative, am arguing to cut defense spending. The whole world is going crazy!!

Do you hear yourself? Defence spending is only 15%. The problem of your deficit is your thinking, what other not essential will you tell us next is only this small percentage of your budget, one non-essential is interest on the debt. What small percentage is climate change? in fact, what do you spend your borrowings on? 40% of spending is discretionary but what does that spending do, it feeds your economy so you are on the horns of a dilemma, cut spending and trash the economy. All socialist economies have this dilemma and yours is no different

talaniman · Dec 17, 2019, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's a fair point, but I do think it could be cut if we learned to mind our own business. Three points to consider:

1. Defense spending is only 15% of the budget, so we can't blame our deficits on that.
2. We spend as much on defense as the next 9 nations COMBINED. Surely we could cut some.
3. Do you see the irony in this? You, the liberal, are arguing to continue defense spending. I, the conservative, am arguing to cut defense spending. The whole world is going crazy!!

1. Maybe you should make a list of the other 85% we spend the money on that results in a deficit and as Clete points out, the interest on that debt.

2. So why is it that 2 or 3 of those nations can spend a lot less and still have formidable enough forces to cause big problems?

3. Half the world is crazy thought you knew.

Originally Posted by paraclete

Do you hear yourself? Defence spending is only 15%. The problem of your deficit is your thinking, what other not essential will you tell us next is only this small percentage of your budget, one non-essential is interest on the debt. What small percentage is climate change? in fact, what do you spend your borrowings on? 40% of spending is discretionary but what does that spending do, it feeds your economy so you are on the horns of a dilemma, cut spending and trash the economy. All socialist economies have this dilemma and yours is no different

Sometimes you just nail it Clete. We cut military spending the people who make the war stuff lose their jobs and entire towns collapse.

jlisenbe · Dec 17, 2019, 05:50 PM

Do you hear yourself? Defence spending is only 15%.

If you would bother to read, I was responding to Tal's mention of defense spending relative to the budget deficit. Defense spending by itself is not the core problem of the budget deficit.

1. Maybe you should make a list of the other 85% we spend the money on that results in a deficit and as Clete points out, the interest on that debt.

Interest on the debt is about 8% of the budget. As to why I don't list what the other 85% is spent on, it's because it makes no difference. We cannot continue to borrow a trillion dollars a year. That's just the bottom line. We would have to cut spending by more than 20% to balance the budget. If we rescinded the Trump tax cuts, it would narrow the gap by only a narrow margin.

2. So why is it that 2 or 3 of those nations can spend a lot less and still have formidable enough forces to cause big problems?

One contributing factor is they pay their troops very little, say in Russia or China. They spend much less for equipment since their labor costs are a great deal lower than ours. The biggest problem we have is this idea that money grows on trees, that we can borrow, borrow, borrow endlessly, and that reality is whatever we want to pretend it is.

We cut military spending the people who make the war stuff lose their jobs and entire towns collapse.

So we'll just continue to borrow a tril a year until we completely collapse. What a plan that is. What will those workers and towns do then?

Vacuum7 · Dec 17, 2019, 05:53 PM

Believe me: The towns will collapse faster if we don't keep Defense spending and the ChiComs invade.

jlisenbe · Dec 17, 2019, 05:56 PM

The towns will collapse faster if we don't keep Defense spending and the ChiComs invade.

Make any spending proposal you want as long as you also propose how to pay for it. What do you suggest we do to close a one trillion dollar budget deficit? What is your plan?

paraclete · Dec 17, 2019, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Make any spending proposal you want as long as you also propose how to pay for it. What do you suggest we do to close a one trillion dollar budget deficit? What is your plan?

You need to recognise you are addicted to PORK. All this spending is to keep the politicians happy, a little boonie here, a little boonie, there and soon those boonies become essential industries. You know how they pay for it, Tax, no that's not palatable so they borrow it, use OPM afterall interest is only 6% of the budget, so keep interest rates low