[talaniman]

I'm willing to bet location or relocation has a great deal to do with those unfilled jobs you speak of, as much as skills and motivation. Especially for older dogs with somewhat deeper roots, as well as those looking for more than just a job. Transitioning from on job/location to another is also expensive. But the ghost towns in the Midwest proves people are moving to take those jobs. Then we have those tariffs by the Dufus, which helps one industry, yet devastates another. That's a clumsy way to create a fair market.

[jlisenbe]

I'm willing to bet location or relocation has a great deal to do with those unfilled jobs you speak of

So why wouldn't they move? Is it just so much easier to put them on welfare? I wonder what the hundreds of thousands who moved west in covered wagons at great risk would think of our country now. Good grief.

[talaniman]

So why wouldn't they move? Is it just so much easier to put them on welfare? I wonder what the hundreds of thousands who moved west in covered wagons at great risk would think of our country now. Good grief.

That's rather cynical, and snarky, and not very practical today to just venture to the unknown, and live off the land and campout until you get a job, but here's what I mean as far as MODERN challenges,

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/three-m...hos-qualified/

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...n_1007902.html

These are old articles to highlight that companies have known of the skills gap a long time now, a decade almost so what have they done about it. NOTHING though that's been changing SLOWLY. Seems like those high paid CEO's would have it figured out by now.

http://www.themanufacturinginstitute...067A704CD.ashx

[jlisenbe]

not very practical today to just venture to the unknown, and live off the land and campout until you get a job

Like I said. Don't expect people to take care of themselves. Just put them on welfare. We have become a nation of pygmies. Low expectations and therefore low results.

And you still haven't answered the question.

[talaniman]

It's not my problem whether you accept my answer as adequate or not. I have presented my case and it is what it is. I think the real issue is not conflating welfare with a minimum wage as they are two different things. I understand your peeve with welfare, but also think a MW from decades ago feeds the need for more welfare, and raising it gets people off it, or at least not so dependent.

Now how businesses react to this change is key, as they are keen to pass costs on to consumers anyway. Anyone making $7 bucks an hour has to be on welfare. No choice.

My question is why do YOU think that it's okay to subsidize the wages of people working for companies that make billions, or millions, that already get tax breaks and deductions to help their profits?

[jlisenbe]

My question is why do YOU think that it's okay to subsidize the wages of people working for companies that make billions, or millions, that already get tax breaks and deductions to help their profits?

Ah! A question. Here is how questions are to be answered.

1. Allowing people to keep their own money hardly qualifies as a subsidy. That is not what "subsidy" means.
2. The top 5% of wager earners already pay about 60% of federal income taxes. The bottom 50% of wage earners essentially pay nothing. Only in the mind of a liberal does that qualify as a subsidy to the wealthy.
3. So you cannot say I am OK with a subsidy that, in fact, only exists in the fantasies of liberal politicians.

It's not my problem whether you accept my answer as adequate or not.

Nope. You can't get off with that garbage. I could not accept your answer because you didn't bother to say why we wouldn't raise the minimum wage to 30 an hour if, as you said, 15 was such a great idea. You never bothered to give an answer that I, or anyone else, could have considered.

Now I'll answer the question I asked you, since you seem unwilling to do so. We don't propose a 30 dollar minimum wage for the simple reason that it would be a bad idea, much like 15 dollars is a bad idea. Increasing the minimum wage does not increase the supply of money. It will not increase tax revenues. It will increase prices and cause a number of people to lose their jobs simply because some employers will be unable, or unwilling, to nearly double wages.

But I can see something in your idea of a 15 dollar minimum wage being tied to ending welfare payments. If there could be some exceptions made, such as teenagers wanting a summer or part-time job, or young adults trying to get started in the job market but not having job skills worth 15 dollars an hour, then it would be worth talking about. So question: What do you think about that proposal?

You make proposals, then you should defend them. You seem unwilling to do that when the going gets tough. That's unfortunate.

[talaniman]

Had I known of your inability to grasp simple macro economics I would not have answered you at all. So, sorry about that. Let me try this, the chances of a raise in the federal minimum wage is almost nil but states are doing it despite that.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Any questions just ask.

[jlisenbe]

Had I known of your inability to grasp simple macro economics I would not have answered you at all. So, sorry about that. Let me try this, the chances of a raise in the federal minimum wage is almost nil but states are doing it despite that.

You basically did not answer at all. I have found that when people run out of ideas, then they become offensive, start throwing around terms like "macroeconomics" (which is one word, not two), and put links to websites in an attempt to look like they have answers. You had a chance to answer a simple question. You passed on it, which makes it appear you have no answer. Oh well. Not trying to be offensive to you. I love to discuss these things, but I don't want to just argue. It's useless.

[paraclete]

You love to argue, you are not interested in welfare, minimum wage or anything else. I know Tal has a voice for the leftist view even if the solutions offered aren't sound, but you look for the put down rather than the answer. You say you can't get answers, but you don't accept the views offered. Maybe Tal doesn't have the answer to all problems, but the answer is actually found in consensus. You think macro economics is a term people throw around. It refers to the big picture, something you don't see. Minimum wage is a mechanism which prevents labour exploitation to some extent and should be embraced by a fair society

[jlisenbe]

I'm not trying to put down anyone, but I am trying to get people to think about what they say. That's why I like to ask questions, to get people to think. For instance, a fifteen dollar minimum wage would indeed help some people, but would hurt many others since it would mean their jobs would cease to exist. That might not bother you, but it bothers me. Tal stated a position, and I questioned him about it. It's simply an honest exchange of ideas. I would encourage people to thoughtfully make their arguments for their ideas without getting mad about it. You will have to decide if you like that level of honesty. This stuff does not generally make me angry, but it does make me think, and I like that. I learn a lot from these discussions, and I enjoy seeing other points of view, including yours, even if I don't agree with them. Now does it aggravate me when someone will not answer a simple question? Yeah, I guess it does, so that's on me. I try to do things in a way that reflects well on Christ, but I do fall short more than I care to admit. But I actually hate arguing just for the sake of arguing. It's pointless.

I might add that anytime Tal thinks I'm getting too pushy, if he will say so, then I'll dial it back, or just abandon this thread. I'm not out to cause problems. He handles himself quite well, so I have stayed in this, but it's not a big deal. We know each other from the plumbing arena. He knows I respect him.

[paraclete]

I'm not trying to put down anyone, but I am trying to get people to think about what they say. That's why I like to ask questions, to get people to think. For instance, a fifteen dollar minimum wage would indeed help some people, but would hurt many others since it would mean their jobs would cease to exist. That might not bother you, but it bothers me. Tal stated a position, and I questioned him about it. It's simply an honest exchange of ideas. I would encourage people to thoughtfully make their arguments for their ideas without getting mad about it. You will have to decide if you like that level of honesty. This stuff does not generally make me angry, but it does make me think, and I like that. I learn a lot from these discussions, and I enjoy seeing other points of view, including yours, even if I don't agree with them. Now does it aggravate me when someone will not answer a simple question? Yeah, I guess it does, so that's on me. I try to do things in a way that reflects well on Christ, but I do fall short more than I care to admit. But I actually hate arguing just for the sake of arguing. It's pointless.

I might add that anytime Tal thinks I'm getting too pushy, if he will say so, then I'll dial it back, or just abandon this thread. I'm not out to cause problems. He handles himself quite well, so I have stayed in this, but it's not a big deal. We know each other from the plumbing arena. He knows I respect him.

Where do you get these ideas from. If an employer can't pay $15 an hour they should get off their backside and do the work themselves. Anything less is exploitation and what I don't get is you defend that.

I'm generally conservative but I know what it is like to be underpaid so there should be realistic minimums and there should be help for those who need it as long as they can't exploit it

[jlisenbe]

Where do you get these ideas from. If an employer can't pay $15 an hour they should get off their backside and do the work themselves. Anything less is exploitation and what I don't get is you defend that.

I get these ideas by listening a lot to debates about minimum wages. If, for instance, a fast food restaurant has to double its wages to get to 15, then it will have to raise prices considerably. Many people will choose not to buy food there because of the higher prices. Less business equals fewer employees. Some of the restaurants will go out of business due to a lack of profit. This is not my idea. It is a proven occurrence. Raising the MW decreases available low-skill, entry level jobs. Just so you'll know I'm not making this up, https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...rticle/2549492.

But I'll ask you the same question I asked Tal and he did not answer. If raising the minimum wage to 15 is a great idea, then why stop there? Why not 18, or 25, or even 30 dollars an hour? Why did you pick 15? You say anything less than that is exploitation. Based on what data?

I'm convinced the answer to the minimum wage question is simple. As people get more experience, they become a more valuable employee and begin to move up the wage ladder. That's why only about 5% of hourly employees in the U.S. make minimum wage, and many of them are restaurant servers that make tips which, when added to their wage, would move them above minimum wage. Also, most people do not make minimum wage for more than a few years, at which point their skill level justifies a higher wage. But raising the MW will keep teens from getting summer jobs, and prevent unskilled adults from getting a first, full-time job. You will be hurting the very people you are trying to help.

I would think a logical compromise would be to grant a separate minimum wage ($6.00??) to teens looking for summer jobs, or for unskilled adults looking for a first job. Then the current minimum wage of 7.65 could go to 9 or 10, or whatever would seem right.

There is another side to this. If I am an unskilled, high school dropout, and I'm looking for a job, I might be quite willing to work for, let's say, 8 dollars an hour. But you and Tal have mandated that I not have the liberty to do that. The employer tells me that my lack of skills keeps me out of a 15 dollar an hour job. So even though I am willing to exercise my freedom to work for 8, you refuse to let me do so, and so I end up with no job. I might be convinced that working two jobs for 8 is what is best for me at this point in my life, and as I gain experience and skill, then I'll make more in the future. You rob that person of that option. It is misplaced philanthropy.

[paraclete]

So I read you are in favour of exploitation to produce profit, these guys could do with fewer staff and not be quite so fast. Do you hear yourself, a $15, an hour job is a skilled job! Where do you live, Russia, China? I say we get rid of the inefficiencies and the job will be more valuable. It is not hurting people to pay them more and stop exploiting them. You still have a slave economy mentality

[jlisenbe]

So I read you are in favour of exploitation to produce profit

You still have a slave economy mentality

As is common on this thread, you don't want to answer a simple question or rationally defend your positions, all of which makes it appear that you have no answers. Making baseless accusations is not engaging in thought.

Rather than everyone just getting angry, I'm going to call it quits. I've made my points. People can accept them or reject them. Just make sure your position is well thought out. I'm very comfortable with where I am on this. It's a shame we can't have a simple, non-angry discussion, but it is what it is. Best wishes!

[talaniman]

Its all good peeps. I can't say I don't like the argument thing myself and we have done a lot of it here over the years. It can get pretty wild. Yet we keep coming back don't we? I'm rather use to disagreements myself, we all have a different point of view, and consensus generally takes a lot of arguing. I don't know any better way to make a point than with facts we agree on, or NOT, as some reject reality and dismiss it as right/left talking points very easily.

JL I think you side tracked yourself a bit trying to understand where the consensus of 15 bucks as a floor for wages comes from. I think if you consider how the founders came up with the constitution you would see they too argued with the words and conditions of the day. Tom reminds me all the time that they couldn't do away with slavery back then, too many opposed making ALL men equal. They had to come up with a consensus just to get the darned thing ratified, and that's the way it's worked ever since. Consensus in increment to address whatever the problem was. Sometimes the ONLY solution is a compromise between to opposite ideas. So why not 20, or 80 bucks for a MW? Simple, we cannot get there anytime soon so a smaller step has to be taken. Heck guy we are struggling with $15, and that's at the state level. The Fed has made no changes to the MW and not planning to as far as I know.

Some states can afford it, some cannot, and yes maybe states will lose some jobs, but some states will gain. Even the ones who have moved to $15 bucks have done so in INCREMENTS over YEARS. It's a process of adjustment, both for people and commerce. Some will grow faster than others and some will disappear from the heights of their hay days. It's complex. So in my opinion, nobody is taking YOUR money and giving it to someone you deem unworthy. Easy for me to blast that notion as right wing lunacy, but I get the concept of working hard and keeping what you work hard for. I really do, but not all people can wait for someone to deem them worthy of their charity and help voluntarily. That's why we have taxes, and just my opinion again, too many cheat to keep the money they supposedly make.

When they took the chains off the slaves, they had a better way to make us all slaves and had no need to use the chains because we can volunteer our services for wages. WAGE SLAVERY is something you should check out from the other thread. Another piece to the bigger puzzle. We aren't going to change each others minds, but we can get some consensus to move forward can't we. If all you got are baby steps, that's cool too.

In case you haven't noticed even without a rise in the MW, the cost of living have gone up dramatically. $6 bucks for summer help is out of the box for sure. Consider what Big Biz has done with their deficit funded tax cuts and the legions of part time workers who have no benefits and tell me why they don't deserve a living wage. Your math may work in rural Ole Miss, but not in the big city where the rents are already through the roof.

[jlisenbe]

In case you haven't noticed even without a rise in the MW, the cost of living have gone up dramatically. $6 bucks for summer help is out of the box for sure. Consider what Big Biz has done with their deficit funded tax cuts and the legions of part time workers who have no benefits and tell me why they don't deserve a living wage. Your math may work in rural Ole Miss, but not in the big city where the rents are already through the roof.

Nice response. This is like a moth to a candle. I just can't stay out of it!

My first real job was bagging groceries at the local navy base. We were paid... nothing. We made it off tips. The next two summers I worked at a local gas station, 60 hours a week for a buck an hour. Minimum wage was 1.65, but I somehow ended up with just a buck. No time and a half for overtime. A buck an hour. Still, it was great. It kept me out of trouble. It taught me to come to work on time. It gave me some confidence. If some well meaning liberal had come along and said that my boss had to pay me 2 dollars instead of just 1, then I would not have had a job. That's why teens working summer or part time jobs need to get a level below minimum wage. If they can't get that, then they will not, in many cases, have a job. And after all, they are not concerned with paying rent, buying groceries, and so forth. They just need some date money, gas money, etc. The main thing is, learning how to work.

The same is true of young adults who didn't graduate from high school, got a GED, might have a criminal record, or whatever, and might need two or three years of just having a chance to prove themselves. That should be their call, and not yours. They are at-risk employees. They need an edge to get started. This is the big problem I have with your position (besides not being able to explain that if 15 is wonderful, then why isn't 30 DOUBLE wonderful). You are not living in the real world of employment.

The best solution is a healthy economy. When you have that, then the person who is willing to work hard, keep his/her mouth shut, and learns everything he/she can will not make mw for long. That's the way up, and that's where you and I differ. You spend so much time weeping and referring to such silliness as wage slavery. If a person wants to make it, then he/she can. Easy? No, but they can do it. I know that is true because I have seen it countless times.

There is no such thing as "rural Ole Miss". If you want to be offensive, at least be intelligently offensive. And please let poor ole Paraclete know that I say that jokingly.

[talaniman]

You know as well as I do the economy goes up and down depending on condition beyond the control of most of us citizens. Never has it gone south because of poor people. It's always the rich guys who screw things up, and the rest of us pay for it.

Welfare ain't no fun. The plant I retired from no longer exists.

[jlisenbe]

One more story. When I was in college, I worked summers and some weekends for a local moving company. Tough, hard work, and I loved it. Made two bucks an hour. One of our employees was a guy named Raz Finley. Raz was hard working and became very competent. He was a kind of asst. manager by the time I left. He was a black man. I mention that because this was the 70's, and the hill was higher to climb for him. Several years after I left, the owner decided to retire. He was far removed from being a liberal democrat, but he knew talent when he saw it. He sold the company to Raz, and for many years "Finley Moving and Storage" was written on the sign. He did all of that with no help from weeping liberals. He worked hard and worked smart, during good times and bad times. He made it big after starting small. So I think the many Raz Finleys in this world trump your sad story about rich guys messing things up. They do mess things up, and if what they do is illegal, then they should be prosecuted. But this is still the land of opportunity.

I can actually sympathize with some adjustment to the minimum wage. I think 15 is too high, but I could be persuaded towards raising it so long as some reasonable allowances are made for teens and people just entering the workforce.

[talaniman]

Actually it only goes to $10 bucks most places with further raises a few years down the road by the states that passed it. The MW applies to everybody kids included. By the way the cost of living went up 2.9% the last quarter, and wages increased 2.7% in the same span. COL being prices of goods and services. I've often wondered how prices go up faster than wages and often when wages have not gone up.

[jlisenbe]

Where did you get your data? The consumer price index has gone up less than two percent so far for the first six months of the year. Am I missing something?