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excon · Mar 12, 2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Um, the church has to pay its employees, it doesn't have to do business with an insurance company.

Hello again, Steve:

How so? The church doesn't need employees any more than it needs insurance..

excon

speechlesstx · Mar 12, 2012, 09:22 AM

What exactly do you think a church does during the week when they aren't holding services? Does it just run itself? Or do the people that make it function by maintaining the building, addressing the needs of the endless flow of people seeking assistance, visiting the sick and the shut-ins, etc. etc. etc. not need means of supporting themselves? You'd rather they live off on welfare, too?

How in this day can a church NOT need insurance? The church has no need to protect its assets. The employees and staff don't get sick? What world do you live in, ex?

As I said before, when you force the church out of the 'business' of ministry you're going to miss it. Tal argued ignorantly again that we don't care about people. I'm beginning to think it is because of ignorance because you guys apparently think the church does nothing during the week. Buddy, the church never really closes, it's on call and on the job 24/7, 365 days a year.

talaniman · Mar 12, 2012, 09:22 AM

Um, the church has to pay its employees, it doesn't have to do business with an insurance company.

By law they do. Because employees have a right to employer insurance, fair wages, and a expectation of reasonable work hours, and OVERTIME!

They make money, pay no taxes, and help people. That's great, but even they are not above the law, nor can they dictate their law. I have volunteered at many churches, and seen no where that the church has suffered damage by OBEYING the law.

What you see as my ignorance, is an informed statement of fact since it goes against what you worship. I put my time an efforts where my mouth is, as do you!

speechlesstx · Mar 12, 2012, 09:27 AM

Except for the part that employers are required to provide insurance you're right. Health insurance is a 'benefit' and you know it, employers are not required to furnish health insurance. Even under Obamacare they aren't, they can simply pay a penalty and let you pay for it which is what you want so enough of the charade.

NeedKarma · Mar 12, 2012, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Does it just run itself? Or do the people that make it function by maintaining the building, addressing the needs of the endless flow of people seeking assistance, visiting the sick and the shut-ins, etc. etc. etc. not need means of supporting themselves?

Tithing and volunteers.

excon · Mar 12, 2012, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

What exactly do you think a church does during the week when they aren't holding services?

Hello again, Steve:

Oh, I understand the church WANTS employees, just like it WANTS insurance. The NEED word, doesn't apply. There ARE little one preacher church's WITHOUT employees..

I know these left wing legal arguments, tire you... Bummer.

excon

talaniman · Mar 12, 2012, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Except for the part that employers are required to provide insurance you're right. Health insurance is a 'benefit' and you know it, employers are not required to furnish health insurance. Even under Obamacare they aren't, they can simply pay a penalty and let you pay for it which is what you want so enough of the charade.

You are correct as employer based insurance ties me to that company, and my own insurance I can take with me when I get laid off is a better option, see as the job creators aren't do there job.

Single payer, or Medicare for all is my hope. Then the poor beleaguered churches won't be making the straw argument about attacks on their freedom.

But all you see is what you want, and I don't count, right... or left?? Meet me in the middle! If you dare! Then neither of us has to have a charade.

speechlesstx · Mar 12, 2012, 09:39 AM

Oh, so because there are little churches with only a pastor, no other church needs any employees. Man, your arguments are getting really lame. It's those lame arguments that tire me because apparently you and tal have no idea how a church works.

talaniman · Mar 12, 2012, 09:41 AM

They can work inside the law, like you want the rest of us to or shut the mother down!

excon · Mar 12, 2012, 09:50 AM

Hello again, Steve:

It's true. Fortunately I don't..

However, I KNOW they write checks. And, I know they they think they can tell their insurance company what to do with the money AFTER they've paid them, but their employees have FREE WILL.

You say they NEED one, and NOT the other... I've shown you that they DON'T. You don't LIKE my example, but the legal concepts DON'T change because of a church's size..

I'm NOT getting it. Seems like you'd be able to splain it to me in pretty simple terms.. I'm a simple guy.

excon

tomder55 · Mar 12, 2012, 10:54 AM

OK . The employer hires the insurance company and negotiates the terms for the plan they will provide for their employees. There are some services that are required by law on a state by state basis that have to be included in the plan ;but generally the employer decided the level of coverage that will be included in the company provided benefit.

I for one think that even this is too restrictive because better deals could be negotiated if the employer were able to negotiate outside the state monopoly system.

Now mandating that the church cover contraception against their doctrine is a complete violation of the 1st amendment . You know that it will not last court challenge. Even in your bluest of blue states a Federal judge has ruled that pharmacists can be guided by their consciences rather than the state with regard to stocking and distributing abortifacients contraceptive drugs.(Stormans v. Selecky)

speechlesstx · Mar 12, 2012, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

They can work inside the law, like you want the rest of us to or shut the mother down!

Unfortunately for you the church has constitutional freedom, or are you ready to tear down that wall of separation between church and state?

speechlesstx · Mar 12, 2012, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Tithing and volunteers.

You obviously have no idea how the church functions either.

speechlesstx · Mar 12, 2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by excon

I'm NOT getting it. Seems like you'd be able to splain it to me in pretty simple terms.. I'm a simple guy.

excon

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Seems pretty darn simple to me.

excon · Mar 12, 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Seems pretty darn simple to me.

Hello again, Steve:

So, we're back to calling a hospital, a church, huh? I think this thread has run its course..

When do you want to draft?

excon

NeedKarma · Mar 12, 2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

You obviously have no idea how the church functions either.

Is this a good resource to learn what function a church serves?
The Role of The Church - Catholic Bible 101

I don't see where it says that it becomes a business.

tomder55 · Mar 12, 2012, 11:44 AM

Catholic health care is a ministry of the Roman Catholic Church continuing Jesus' mission of love and healing in the world today. Comprising more than 600 hospitals and 1,400 long-term care and other health facilities in all 50 states, the Catholic health ministry is the largest group of non-profit health care providers in the nation

NeedKarma · Mar 12, 2012, 11:53 AM

Where is that mentioned in the bible?

tomder55 · Mar 12, 2012, 12:56 PM

Umm the Catholic church has it's own doctrine... but when I have the time I'll post any number of biblical passages that say healing is part of the Christian mission.

NeedKarma · Mar 12, 2012, 01:00 PM

Oh I agree with that part but I'm pretty sure it relates to doing it from the kindness of your heart and not for money.