[Alty]

We've already mentioned that God had to take a step back in order to give us free will. We don't know the power of the evil forces that He is up against.

But you claim that he's stopped tsunamis, earthquakes, why stop one but not all? Why pick?

As for evil forces, that's part of your belief, and that's fine. That belief brings you comfort, but for me it's just further proof that Deism is the right choice, at least for me.

If he can stop one tsunami, one cancer patient from dying, then he has the power to stop it all.

You all seem to want it both ways. You say that cancer is man made, our fault, that's why God doesn't intervene, but then you say that there are cases of cancer that have been cured miraculously. Which is it? Either he does or he doesn't intervene.

Don't you see it? How could you miss it? You're all proving my case.

[Wondergirl]

You say that cancer is man made, our fault, that's why God doesn't intervene, but then you say that there are cases of cancer that have been cured miraculously. Which is it?

I never said God doesn't intervene. I said God gives us the choice to do evil or good -- to trash the earth or to go green, to steal dogs for dogfighting bait or to work tirelessly at an animal shelter, to slide through the stop sign or to come to a full stop.

I had a friend who in May 1989 was told by her oncologist that she would not see her birthday in October of that year, so vicious and deadly was the type of breast cancer that she had. She died two months ago -- yes, of cancer, but during the years in between, she had the opportunity to visit state and national parks she had never been to and to see her sons succeed in life and also marry and produce grandchildren. She and I agreed it was one of God's miracles.

[Alty]

I never said God doesn't intervene. I said God gives us the choice to do evil or good -- to trash the earth or to go green, to steal dogs for dogfighting bait or to work tirelessly at an animal shelter, to slide through the stop sign or to come to a full stop.

But you also said that God doesn't cure cancer because cancer is man made, yet you claim that people that have been given a death sentence with cancer have all of a sudden become cancer free.

You also claimed that God stops tsunamis and earthquakes, but why not all of them? If he stops a few then why not stop them all? Are tsunamis and earthquakes also man made?

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. My mom was given 6 months to live, she died 3 weeks later. My dad was dying before they even diagnosed him. Both of them lived healthy lives, like I mentioned before. Neither one smoked, drank, they ate organic, they drove me nuts with their vitamins and healthy living.

I know how cancer has come to be. When I used it as a way to prove that God doesn't intervene, you all told me that it wasn't a fair example because cancer is not God's doing, but ours, so of course he won't step in. Now I'm being told that God has cured cancer.

Pick. Either it's proof that God intervenes, or it's proof he doesn't. You all seem to want it both ways but that's not fair.

[Wondergirl]

But you also said that God doesn't cure cancer because cancer is man made, yet you claim that people that have been given a death sentence with cancer have all of a sudden become cancer free.

You are putting words in our mouths. I never said God doesn't cure cancer. I said he didn't create cancer. Big difference.

Some Christians have told me that if someone isn't cured, they don't have enough faith or they haven't prayed hard enough. I don't agree. It's not our own merit that makes the difference. We don't know why God does a miracle in one place but not in another, saves one person here, but not the person over there, prevents this tsunami here, but not that one there. Someday we will understand.

[Alty]

You are putting words in our mouths. I never said God doesn't cure cancer. I said he didn't create cancer. Big difference.

Some Christians have told me that if someone isn't cured, they don't have enough faith or they haven't prayed hard enough. I don't agree. It's not our own merit that makes the difference. We don't know why God does a miracle in one place but not in another, saves one person here, but not the person over there, prevents this tsunami here, but not that one there. Someday we will understand.

Or the explanation could be simple, as simple as believing that God created the world then walked away.

So far no one has given me a good reason to change my beliefs.

[shazamataz]

Or the explanation could be simple, as simple as believing that God created the world then walked away.

So far no one has given me a good reason to change my beliefs.

To add to your belief Alty, perhaps God also created/is creating other worlds that we do not know about... scientists have barely discovered the universe so who knows how many planets there are out there with life...
We might just be one of the worlds he created that he has not come back to 'check on' for a while to see how we have progressed :)

[elscarta]

You can't have it both ways. Either he stops tsunamis or he doesn't. Either he cures cancer or he doesn't.

Altenweg, if we can't have it both ways then neither can you.

Cancer being cured when there's no explanation. There is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet.
...
What of the child I spoke of? Why is he being left to fend for himself? Where is God? No one can answer that. Why?

There is an explanation for that, we just haven't found it yet!

[inthebox]

I am a parent, I have two beautiful children that I have mentioned a few times in this thread alone.

All of your arguements are tiny little things that we all have to go through, all have to "suffer" through to become adults. None of these things will kill our children.

My arguement all along, if you read back, is that Christians think of God as the father of humanity, the creator, we are his children, blah, blah, blah.

So, let me ask you, If your child was going to be molested and you had the power to stop it, would you? Is this something your child has to go through in order to be "happy", in order to grow as a human being?

Yes, of course, to take preventitive steps. But I am not God, I am not all knowing. But in my human way, the only way I can be certain that my child woul never be molested is to have my child ight at my hip at all times. Because God is not necessarily like this with us, you reject a God that intervenes? You accept a god that stands back and does NOTHING?


If you were to be murdered, in front of your child, would you as a parent think that letting that your child fend for him/herself, living each day on the edge, sleeping in a garbage heap, suffering both mentally and physically, would be good for his/her soul? Would you as a Christian hope that the "father" of the world would save your child or is it just another part of growing up?


Hopefully, that will never happen, if it does, I have plenty of life insurance and siblings that will take over. I'm not really understanding your analogy to Christianity with this scenario?



You speak of miracles. Where? Cancer being cured when there's no explanation. There is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet.

Does it take as much faith in humanity to believe this as much as in a Christian God?


How many years did human beings believe that the earth was flat? It took a curious mind to determine that that belief was wrong. Is that a miracle? No, it just wasn't discovered until later.


Darwin thought a cell was jsut a homogenous blob, now we know the cell is a machine and that even the simplest organisms have dna worthy of the most complex computer programs. So we discover this wonder scientifically.


The God of the bible parted seas, turned wine into blood, a stick into a serpent, etc. etc. I'm sure you could quote the miracles far better then I could. So, if God intervenes, performs miracles, where are they? There are things far easier then parting a sea, but they're not being done.


We will never fully know. Is it a miracle that I woke up this morning? I could have had an arrhythmia and died, or been a victim of a home invasion, or a richter 7 earthquake, or a tornado. How do I know that the very miracle is not just being?

2 years ago I hit a deer at 75 mph, at night, knocked out the lights, fish tailed right and left, on and off the median, hit a guard rail, and totaled the car. I walked out, shaken up but not hurt at all. what if there was a tractor trailor or another vehicle, in front or to the side or to the rear of me? What if there was a steep drop off? What if I fully crossed the median into oncoming traffic? I'm not that good a driver to keep a car on the road at the speed, in the dark while fishtailing it all over the road.


What of the child I spoke of? Why is he being left to fend for himself? Where is God? No one can answer that. Why?

As a parent I certainly would want my child to do every single thing I say, especially now that they are in middle school, but the fact that they often actually CHOOSE to follow me is a blessing [ a miracle unto itself ]. Certainly I think God could have created us as perfect robots that have no choice but to be obedient and love God and others. How much more the love when we CHOOSE to love God and others? { I adopted 3 of my children, they did not have a functioning biological that cared or loved them }




G&P

[ETWolverine]

But you also said that God doesn't cure cancer because cancer is man made, yet you claim that people that have been given a death sentence with cancer have all of a sudden become cancer free.

You also claimed that God stops tsunamis and earthquakes, but why not all of them? If he stops a few then why not stop them all? Are tsunamis and earthquakes also man made?

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. My mom was given 6 months to live, she died 3 weeks later. My dad was dying before they even diagnosed him. Both of them lived healthy lives, like I mentioned before. Neither one smoked, drank, they ate organic, they drove me nuts with their vitamins and healthy living.

I know how cancer has come to be. When I used it as a way to prove that God doesn't intervene, you all told me that it wasn't a fair example because cancer is not God's doing, but ours, so of course he won't step in. Now I'm being told that God has cured cancer.

Pick. Either it's proof that God intervenes, or it's proof he doesn't. You all seem to want it both ways but that's not fair.

Altenweg,

You seem to be saying that if there is a G-d that intervenes he needs to intervene EVERY TIME. (You asked why if G-d stops SOME earthquakes and tsunamis, why doesn't he stop all eirthquakes or tsunamis?)

Why is that the assumption being made?

Why are you assuming an all-or-nothing approach to G-d's interventions?

Here's a question. Do parents ALWAYS intervene on their children's behalf? Or do they sometimes let the kid make their own mistakes, deal with their own issues and let the kid fall and get back up by themselves in order to give the kid a chance to grow up for themselves?

That's just ONE concept of why G-d might do what you suggest... intervene SOMETIMES and not at other times. (And not one that I prefer, actually, but it is a concept worth thinking about when you argue that a hands-on G-d should be either all-or-nothing.)

In truth all that you have shown us is tha G-d intervenes SOMETIMES, and doesn't intervene at other times, at His own discretion. But we already knew that. The fact that he DOESN'T intervene for some events doesn't prove that he NEVER intervenes... especially since there is so much scientific evidence that he does. The all-or-nothing argument doesn't really hold water from a LOGICAL perspective, because "sometimes" is a viable third alternative.

On a sepparate topic.

You mentioned in another post that you walked away from a pretty bad accident without a scratch.

As an EMT, I have seen the results of accidents that were much less violent than what you describe... and yet they resulted in fatalities or massive injuries.

Yet you walked away without a scratch.

And you see nothing miraculous about that? You don't see any divine intervention?

I do. And I'm rather happy that G-d granted this particular one.

Elliot

[Alty]

You mentioned in another post that you walked away from a pretty bad accident without a scratch.

Not me ET, I believe that was WG (Wondergirl) that posted that. Every accident I'm been in has left much more then a scratch. ;)

Here's a question. Do parents ALWAYS intervene on their children's behalf? Or do they sometimes let the kid make their own mistakes, deal with their own issues and let the kid fall and get back up by themselves in order to give the kid a chance to grow up for themselves?

Of course I let my kids make mistakes. I've covered this already. I've covered this one already, but I'll repeat. If my child wants to roller blade without knee pads, well, go ahead, because I know that the worst that can happen is two scraped up knees, and hopefully that child will learn that knee pads are important. But, if my child wants to have sex without a condom, and I know about it, you better believe I'm not going to turn my back on that. I'll be front line and center making sure that child is well equipped, condoms, birth control and a long talk about waiting.

There are lessons you learn that you walk away from and there are lessons that you never get to learn from because they kill you. As a parent I'll do my best to avoid the second one.

In truth all that you have shown us is tha G-d intervenes SOMETIMES, and doesn't intervene at other times, at His own discretion.

I respect that this is what you believe, but I don't. What I've shown, or believe I've shown, is that God doesn't intervene. Tsunamis, earthquakes, they're part of this world he created, he neither causes them to start or stops them from continuing.

Really, the only thing this discussion has done is furthered my belief. I know that's not what you all hoped for and I'm sorry for that, but I'm still a Deist. :)

[Alty]

you reject a God that intervenes? You accept a god that stands back and does NOTHING?

You seem to think that there is a choice. There is no rejection, no acceptance, it is what it is, nothing more nothing less. I see no proof that God intervenes, therefore I believe that God doesn't intervene.

Hopefully, that will never happen, if it does, I have plenty of life insurance and siblings that will take over. I'm not really understanding your analogy to Christianity with this scenario?

You're lucky. You have life insurance, you have people that will care for your children, the little boy I spoke of doesn't. How can you not understand why I'm bringing this up? This little boy isn't just a story I made up, he's very real, he's at this moment trying his very best to survive. There are thousands more just like him. What I want to know is where is God. If he can cure cancer, like some of you claim, then certainly he can take care of this little boy. Why doesn't he, because he doesn't intervene.

Darwin thought a cell was just a homogenous blob, now we know the cell is a machine and that even the simplest organisms have dna worthy of the most complex computer programs. So we discover this wonder scientifically.

Exactly! Every day we're learning more about how our world works, why things happen. Just like I said, there will be a scientific explanation for those supposed miraculous cures of cancer. Just because we haven't figured it out yet doesn't mean we won't.

I'm sorry but I still don't see any evidence that God intervenes. Everything you all have mentioned aren't miracles, they aren't proof. I wish they were but they're not.

[Alty]

Altenweg, if we can't have it both ways then neither can you.



There is an explanation for that, we just haven't found it yet!

If you have a point it sure would be nice for you to post it and not just try and egg me on by copying what I wrote.

I'm assuming that you don't have anything to say which is why you said nothing.

Truly, if you have something to add then I'd love to hear it. I think I've proven that I'm willing to listen, that if something sounds logical I will consider it. So far nothing has sounded logical, at least not to me, but your post makes no sense at all, it's just argument and that's not why I'm here.

If that's what you want then please find another playground, I'm not interested in getting into a fight.

[Wondergirl]

Not me ET, I believe that was WG (Wondergirl) that posted that. Every accident I'm been in has left much more then a scratch.

You said you walked away from a totaled car. I wondered why you don't consider that a miracle.

I'll be front line and center making sure that child is well equipped, condoms, birth control and a long talk about waiting.

But you can't be with that child and control him every minute of his or her life, so condoms can be left wrapped/unused and birth control pills not taken because "I want a baby to love" or "they're too much trouble." Or are you going to chaperone every date until the wedding day? You do your best to parent, but it still comes down to the fact that the child has free will and can make his own decisions that wouldn't have been your decisions. God gave us the Ten Commandments as a rule book, and Jesus told us to treat each other in the ways we would want that person to treat us. But we still do our own thing and make our own choices.

[Alty]

You said you walked away from a totaled car. I wondered why you don't consider that a miracle.

Where did I say that?

I was in a car wreck, a four car pile up, I didn't walk away without a scratch, in fact I feel pain from that accident every day. It wrecked my back, there's nothing they can do. It also made my collar bone drop down and now it's squishing the muscle between the collar bone and first rib. I can't feel my left arm, it constantly feels like it's asleep, numbness. Only an operation can fix it and it's not an operation the doctors want to perform, it's too dangerous, could leave me without use of my arm period. Right now I have use of it, I just can't feel it.

So no, I don't consider that a miracle, I also don't remember mentioning it here. I think you're all thinking of someone else.

[Wondergirl]

Where did I say that?

I'm sorry. I'm wrong. Inthebox had said that in the same box as when he pulled down your post. He posted in the box and also under it.

But even regarding the actual accident you were in, you could have been killed -- and you weren't. (And I'm sorry to hear of the pain you're in.)

Now what about my second paragraph above, that as a parent you finally give your child free will and trust him to make the right choices? Or be with him every day and every minute to make sure he does the right thing.

[elscarta]

Altenweg, the point in my last posting was that you accused us of wanting to have it both ways, i.e. when it suited our argument God intervenes, but when it didn't God doesn't intervene implying that we should be consistent.

But then in the same posting you were inconsistent in dismissing an unexplainable cure of cancer with an appeal to a future explanation being found, but demanding an explanation for an "unexplainable" absence of God in that boy's life.

Coupled with this was your dismissive comment that a very real and powerful moment in my life when God spoke to me was just my conscience speaking to me, treating me as if I was stupid not to know my own conscience.

Sorry that I let this get the better of me.

[Alty]

Altenweg, the point in my last posting was that you accused us of wanting to have it both ways, ie when it suited our argument God intervenes, but when it didn't God doesn't intervene implying that we should be consistent.

But then in the same posting you were inconsistent in dismissing an unexplainable cure of cancer with an appeal to a future explanation being found, but demanding an explanation for an "unexplainable" absence of God in that boy's life.

Coupled with this was your dismissive comment that a very real and powerful moment in my life when God spoke to me was just my conscience speaking to me, treating me as if I was stupid not to know my own conscience.

Sorry that I let this get the better of me.

I never said that you're stupid. If you took it that way then I'm very sorry, that's not how I intended it.

As for letting it get the better of you, I understand that completely, I'm in that boat too often myself. ;)

At this point of the discussion I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. Obviously we're starting to get to each other, but not in a good way. I have no desire to turn this into a fight, Christians against Deist, I'm outnumbered. ;)

We've all had the chance to voice our beliefs and the reasons for them. At this point we're just going around in circles, repeating ourselves, getting nowhere.

I still believe that Deism is the right choice for me, but I will keep an open mind. I also believe that anyone's choice, no matter what it is, is the right choice. If it brings you peace then who am I to say you're wrong?

Thank you all for joining in the discussion, I value you input and thoughts.

Take care.

Alty. :)

[elscarta]

Hi Altenweg,
Since my last post I have been thinking about your request for proof that miracles occur. I remembered a story that I was told when I was young about a man who had a gaping wound in his leg with a three cm piece of bone clearly missing and the ends of the bone dead.

Searching the internet I found out that the man's name was Pierre de RUDDER.

Case 1 in this link is a full description of what happened.

Also I found the following book on the internet

Medical proof of the miraculous : a clinical study

Which goes into great detail examining this miracle (and others) showing why it is impossible to explain except as a divine miracle.

Some of the points are:
- 3 cm bone regenerated near instantaneously
- not enough phosphorus in the body to create that much bone
- dead bone tissue at end of each part of the break no longer there

Please take the time to read the links and then let me know what you think.

[Alty]

Hi Elscarta,

I'll take a look. Give me a few days, it's been pretty nuts here right now. I just started a new job and I'm juggling all the kid stuff as well. Homework is hard. Wait... aren't they supposed to be doing it? I may have to rethink this. ;)

I will look at it but it may take some time. Give me until Monday, my time. ;)