[Akoue]

So you believe that people have the Holy Spirit who are not saved? Where do you find that in scripture?

I'll take a page out of your playbook and just say that I believe what the Bible says: It says in Acts 10 that although they had received a gift they still were immediately baptized. So it sure looks like baptism is pretty darn important. This certainly accords with the other two pericopes I adduced, and together all three seem to agree that baptism is required.

[Tj3]

Are you saying that you have to be baptized to be saved and have the Holy Spirit?

I am lost on who believes what here.

I am definitely not saying that you must be baptized to have the Holy Spirit. But rather, as scripture says, ONLY those who are saved will have the Holy Spirit. The reference in Acts 10:47 shows that there are those who have the Holy Spirit already are subsequently baptized. The problem that those who believe in a works gospel requiring baptism before salvation have is that they need to argue that the Holy Spirit indwells non-believers, contrary to what scripture says.

Scripture is explicit that we receive the indwellling of the Holy Spirit when and only when we are saved. Water baptism is an act of obedience that follows.

There may be those who are water baptized from tradition, but they are not saved (though some who hold to the works gospel might say that they are).

What about the thief on the cross with Jesus?

That is a good example.

[Tj3]

I'll take a page out of your playbook and just say that I believe what the Bible says: It says in Acts 10 that although they had received a gift they still were immediately baptized. So it sure looks like baptism is pretty darn important.

Agreed. Baptism is pretty darned important as an act of obedience after salvation.

This certainly accords with the other two pericopes I adduced, and together all three seem to agree that baptism is required.

How did you get from "pretty darn important" to "essential" when scripture clearly shows examples where people are saved prior to baptism? (i.e. Acts 10 and the other example given by Nohelp4u, the thief on the cross)

I note that once again you are consistent in not answering my question.

[De Maria]

I believe in recycling also, but I already responded to this argument. Just repeating it does not make it true.

Sometimes repeating it in different words makes it easier to understand.

Baptism follows salvation also.

Baptism follows conversion.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


According to Scripture, Baptism, a work, now saves us:

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Without gettuing into the whole argument again, we have an example in Acts 10 where there were those who received the Holy Spirit and were saved before being baptized:

Acts 10:47
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"NKJV

They received the Holy Spirit, that is true. But where does it say they were saved? If they were already saved, why did St. Peter insist they must be baptized?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

I look at baptism more as a spiritual cleansing than actually saving.

[Akoue]

"And grace is unmerited favour (nothing we have done - no works!)."

Yes, as I keep saying, grace is required for faith and grace is required for works. We do not earn grace, it is freely given. But the question isn't whether grace is required for salvation--everyone agrees that it is--but whether works and faith are both required. You say they are not. Unless you now mean to say that grace is sufficient for salvation? So faith isn't required anymore?


"You keep saying this but we are still waiting to see anything in scripture which says that. Your word is not enough for me."

Well, Tom, I've referred you about a jillion times to the passages that De Maria has provided both here and on the other thread. I've even provided the post #'s to make it easy for anyone who wishes to consult them. And you still haven't gone through them one at a time to show that we're all wrong to think that they show that works are necessary for salvation.

"The "law" is not just tghe Mosaic law, but refers to anyone who places themselves under a works gospel."

Where does it say that? Where do we find any mention in Scripture of a "works gospel"?

"The law of Moses was a constant theme in the NT because the context of where it took place was the land of Israel. But the principle extends beyond just the Mosaic law, for example:

Rom 2:14-16
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV"

Yeah, it's a constant theme because Paul is making the point that we don't have to obey the Mosaic Law in order to be saved; we don't have to be Jewish in order to be Christian. This was a hugely controversial issue in the early decaed of the Church and Paul is weighing in on it. There's nothing here that says, or even suggests that no works of any kind are required.

"He is. No one denied that both faith and works are important. It si whether works are required for salvation. But I note that you go after semantics rather than deal with the issue."

That's some strong tobacco you're smoking!

[Tj3]

Sometimes repeating it in different words makes it easier to understand.

It still does not make it true if it was not true before. Now, as for the rest of your arguments, are you sure that you want to go down this path? We have been there before.

Each of your verses taken out of context can be addressed, but I do not need to since I and Nohelp4u have already shown 2 cases where people were saved without water baptism. Until or unless you can deal with those, any other arguments that you have are a moot point.

[Akoue]

I look at baptism more as a spiritual cleansing than actually saving.

That's a pretty common misconception. It's actually both. (Though, of course, someone can be baptized and not be saved: They can, for instance, renounce their faith at a later time.)

[N0help4u]

Maybe we should be defining works.
Like what would a life of a Christian be without works?
What would they be doing/not doing?
What fruit are they bearing? Like if you say you are a Christian and you go to church and read your Bible what more would the minimum be to qualify as doing works. Even non believers can do works, professing Christians do works so maybe the question is what works makes the Christians set apart to 'make' them saved if that is a requirement that saves them.

[Akoue]

Hold on, Tj. I've got other things going on here and I don't always see your posts the instant you write them. I'll be right back.

[sndbay]

So you believe that people have the Holy Spirit who are not saved? Where do you find that in scripture?

Tom, I understand this to be "asleep" rather then "dead in Christ". It can be unintentional but it might be intentional. Either way it is best to be baptized and thus dead in Christ.

This becomes a judgement which is in the hands of Christ.
1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

The scripture goes on to say that even asleep in Christ thus meaning they do believe in Christ.
1 Th4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Note who is raised first, the dead in Christ.
1 Th 4:15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Refer: 1 Cr 15:13-21

[Tj3]

"And grace is unmerited favour (nothing we have done - no works!)."

Yes, as I keep saying, grace is required for faith and grace is required for works.

Your comments here were addressed. If and when you have something to address the points that I raise (rather than repetition, I am here.

"You keep saying this but we are still waiting to see anything in scripture which says that. Your word is not enough for me."

Well, Tom, I've referred you about a jillion times to the passages that De Maria has provided both here and on the other thread

And I (without the exaggeration on your part) have addressed and refuted those points. We have been through this loop before (you like repetition don't you :p )

"The "law" is not just the Mosaic law, but refers to anyone who places themselves under a works gospel."

Where does it say that? Where do we find any mention in Scripture of a "works gospel"?

Addressed in my last post.

[Tj3]

Maybe we should be defining works.
Like what would a life of a Christian be without works?
What would they be doing/not doing?
What fruit are they bearing? Like if you say you are a Christian and you go to church and read your Bible what more would the minimum be to qualify as doing works. Even non believers can do works, professing Christians do works so maybe the question is what works makes the Christians set apart to 'make' them saved if that is a requirement that saves them.

Good point. But since there are some folk who hold to a works gospel, perhaps we should expand this to ask what works of an unsaved person are able to merit their salvation and are able to add to the insufficiency that they appear to feel exists in the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.

[Tj3]

Tom, I understand this to be "asleep" rather then "dead in Christ". It can be unintentional but it might be intentional. Either way it is best to be baptized and thus dead in Christ.

This becomes a judgement which is in the hands of Christ.
1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

The scripture goes on to say that even asleep in Christ thus meaning they do believe in Christ.
1 Th4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Note who is raised first, the dead in Christ.
1 Th 4:15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Refer: 1 Cr 15:13-21

sndbay,

I do not understand what you are getting at. The question was where in scripture do we find people who are unsaved but have the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how you relate these passages to that question?

[N0help4u]

There are many non Christian organizations that do good works.
Then a more person point would be take
Mother Teresa Christian did good works was a Catholic Christian
Princess Di did good works --was she a Christian?

What if Mother Teresa didn't do the good works she did? Would she be any less saved? Or saved none the less?

[Tj3]

There are many non Christian organizations that do good works.
Then a more person point would be take
Mother Teresa Christian did good works was a Catholic Christian
Princess Di did good works --was she a Christian?

What if Mother Teresa didn't do the good works she did? Would she be any less saved? or saved none the less?

The question that I have asked those who hold to a works gospel is this. If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc. and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Very few of the works gospel folk will even dare answer that, but two to date have and have conceded that they believe that the man would go to hell.

[sndbay]

sndbay,

I do not understand what you are getting at. The question was where in scripture do we find people who are unsaved but have the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how you relate these passages to that question?

THose who believe do have the Holy Spirit. Yet if for an intentional reason they don't do God's Will and their pride leads them toward a delusion which the Spirit permits, they can end up with intentional sleep in Christ. It is a form of double minded. The Holy Spirit can attempt to help but free will gives anyone that choice in life.

I hope that is understood..

[Tj3]

THose who believe do have the Holy Spirit. Yet if for an intentional reason they don't do God's Will and their pride leads them toward a delusion which the Spirit permits, they can end up with intentional sleep in Christ. It is a form of double minded. The Holy Spirit can attempt to help but free will gives anyone that choice in life.

I hope that is understood..

I do not entirely agree with you or that that those verses would support your contention, but I do agree that failure to live your faith after being saved does have consequences.

[N0help4u]

THose who believe do have the Holy Spirit. Yet if for an intentional reason they don't do God's Will and their pride leads them toward a delusion which the Spirit permits, they can end up with intentional sleep in Christ. It is a form of double minded. The Holy Spirit can attempt to help but free will gives anyone that choice in life.

I hope that is understood..

Would that be something like a backslidden Christian or a carnal Christian or a professing Christian or what?

[sndbay]

would that be something like a backslidden Christian or a carnal Christian or a professing Christian or what?

Sorry I do have to run, I have company. Refer: 1 Cr 15:13-21