[Peter Wilson]

De Maria, the "works" that are burned up, are our works of righteousness, not our sins.
In 1 Cor 3 it is talking about building the temple of God on the foundation of Jesus. This is where my works, and your works, as a matter of fact, the very words that you confess right now, will be judged as being true or not, as will mine. I have no fear of this, only hope that in some small way, my words may shine a little light on this scripture and that perhaps they will survive the "Consuming fire of God" For our God is a consuming fire.
Even as the sacrifices were consumed by God in the Old testament, so will ours be tested and the acceptable will remain.
I'm going to bed, it's 10 past midnight here!
:)

[De Maria]

De Maria,
You provided some interesting responses. Regarding my point that the fathers appear to be in agreement that the rich man went to hell in Christ's parable in Luke 16:24 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus), rather than provide a quote by the fathers where they state that he is in purgatory you reply that you don't think that I have read all of the fathers. It seems that if you could have found a quote in which they state that he was in purgatory you would have posted it. But, since you couldn't, it appears that you attempted to create a diversion by your reply questioning how much of the fathers I have read. However, I can back up my position. Here are just a few of the fathers who agree with me:

St. John Chrysostom
For even if that rich man had endured none of the things I have mentioned, if he had passed his whole life without dread and care— why say I his whole life? Rather that one moment (for it is a moment, our whole life is but one moment, compared with that eternity which has no end)— if all things had turned out according to his desire; must he not be pitied for these words, yea, rather, for this state of things? Was not your table once deluged with wine? Now you are not master even of a drop of water, and that, too, in your greatest need. Did not you neglect that poor man full of sores? But now you ask a sight of him, and no one gives leave. He lay at your gate; but now in Abraham's bosom. You then lay under your lofty ceiling; but now in the fire of hell.
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 2 on Philippians (Chrysostom)

St.Gregory Nazianzus
For that rich man who would not give to the poor man even the scraps of his table, being in hell came to beg for even the least thing. For he sought for a drop of water, who refused to give a crumb of bread.
Catechetics Online

Irenaeus
"(5) The rich man in hell(6) declared that he had five brothers, to whom he desired that one rising from the dead should go.
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK II

Please study the meaning of the word "hell" to the early Christians. We have an ancient prayer, the Creed, which basically explains what hell means and meant to them:

We believe in One God... We believe in One Lord Jesus Christ... He descended into Hell on the third day He rose again...

Did Jesus descend to the Hell of the damned? No, Scripture is clear that He did not. He descended to the Spirits in Prison.

So unless you can tie the Fathers quotations to eternal perdition, then I believe they are speaking about hell as in hades, the abode of the dead, purgatory. In addition, the word Purgatory was unknown to them. They could not have used that terminology in place of "hell".

Your quote by Pope Benedict does not unequivocally state that the rich man went to purgatory. However, the Pope John Paul directly states that he went to hell:

This is well explained in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the Gospel of Luke (cf. 16:19-31). The rich man was condemned to hell, not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done.
EWTN - Document Library - www.ewtn.com

Did Pope John Paul II write this? Please read the heading:
JOHN PAUL II'S ANNIVERSARY AND MOTHER TERESA'S BEATIFICATION
Fr Sebastian Vazhakala, M.C.

I doubt if Pope John Paul II would have said anything like this since he and his Cardinal and Prefect of Doctrine were very close.

Regarding your question as to where Luke 16:26 indicates the situation that the rich man finds himself is permanent:

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

Does that say the chasm is fixed permanently? Where?

I mentioned that I did not believe that the rich man died in God's grace and friendship – which is a requirement for a stay in purgatory. You replied that since Dives calls him “Father” it indicates that he died in a state of grace. This does not prove that he died in a state of grace. He recognized Abraham, but it appears from the text that he did not follow the example of Abraham. Even demons recognize saints (Acts 19:15).
(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
Does this mean that the evil spirits are in a state of grace De Maria? It would according to your reasoning.

Does the demon in your example call Jesus Lord or Paul Father. Yet the Rich Man, Dives,
Calls Abraham Father.

Let me ask you, is there any love in the Hell of the Damned?

When discussing 1 Peter 3:19 I stated that the Greek word translated “spirits” in the New Testament unless modified indicates non-human spirit beings. The word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You wanted to see the verses that I mentioned quoted, so here they are:

Matthew 12:45:
Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Acts 23:8,9
(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

Luke 10:20:
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Ephesians 2:2
In which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Hebrews 1:14:
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

In none of the five verses just quoted above could the word spirit be interpreted as referring to a human being. As I mentioned above, the word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You seem to disagree. Fair enough. Can you find in the New Testament the word spirit (unmodified) where it clearly is being used to represent a deceased human?

Regarding 1 Peter 3:20, the reference is to the story of Noah that we find in Genesis 6. In verses 1-5 of that chapter we find that there were sons of God having intercourse with the daughters of men. The resulting offspring would be hybrid, not human. Secondly, you seem to think that the purpose of Christ's visit in 1 Peter 3:19 to the prison was to preach to his children who would soon be joining him in heaven. Since the text indicates that these spirits in the prison disobeyed during the days of Noah, that the thought of the hearts of the men were evil continually and that as a result he was sorry that he made man, I find it unlikely that they were in a state of grace. In fact, it says in 2 Peter 2:5 that God brought the flood on the world of the ungodly:

If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

so verse 20 actually disproves your notion that verse 19 is a reference to purgatory unless you believe that those who were evil enough to cause God to destroy the earth with the flood were actually in his grace and friendship.

Rob, you are reading a great deal into Scripture.

As to whether spirits must be modified to determine what it means, you are right. In essence, you are saying that the Scripture must be read in context.

But 1 Peter 3:19 is modified. It is modified by 1 Peter 3:20.

Let us look at them together:

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Which had been some time incredulous...

These are spirits WHICH HAD BEEN SOME TIME INCREDULOUS...

I don't know what else I can add. You certainly did a great job in reading into Scripture what you wanted to prove from Scripture. But that is called esegesis. Not exegesis.

Those whose works burn in the account of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, where do they go exactly?

Rob

To heaven.

Oh and its nice to meet someone who is more verbose than I. ;)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

De Maria, the "works" that are burned up, are our works of righteousness, not our sins.

Why would our works of righteousness be burned?

In 1 Cor 3 it is talking about building the temple of God on the foundation of Jesus. This is where my works, and your works, as a matter of fact, the very words that you confess right now, will be judged as being true or not, as will mine. I have no fear of this, only hope that in some small way, my words may shine a little light on this scripture and that perhaps they will survive the "Consuming fire of God" For our God is a consuming fire.
Even as the sacrifices were consumed by God in the Old testament, so will ours be tested and the acceptable will remain.
I'm going to bed, it's 10 past midnight here!
:)

Amen!! And I know the feeling. I was up until 2am last night.

Anyway, I can see we are close in understanding. I'd like to ask you this for future discussion.

If our works of "righteousness" are burned as you claim. Although I believe they are the works of gold and precious stones which do not burn. Whereas the works of perishable material are our sins. But if we continue with your idea that it is works of righteousness, where are these works? I mean, where do we store them? Is it in our souls?

And if these works of righteousness are burned in our souls, does that not describe a purification?

Good night!

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Why would the works of the righteous be burned up?
I have explained that to you at least three times so far here
And that any of the works that do not get burned up receive a crown.

I think it would do you a lot of good to set aside things the Church taught you and read the Bible by doing topics studies
With an open mind and heart not trying to fit Catholic doctrine into it.

I have explained everything here repeatedly and repeated the majority of it on
The previous page 12 -- #'s 111, 115, 117, 119 & 120

[Tj3]

David had also been set free from sin, yet he had to pay for it:
The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

Where does this say that he paid for forgiveness for his own sin? You keep saying it, but it is not there.

True. Purgatory is God purging us of sin. End of story.

True. Neither faith nor works can merit salvation.

God did, we don't. Scripture says that Jesus did the purging, not us, and nothing we can do (including penance of any sort) can merit any portion of our payment for sin.

It sounds like you8 are conceding.

And yet, if we do not have faith and do not work, we will not be saved.

Start a new thread on faith and works if you wish - but note that your mis-understanding here appears to be due to a lack of understanding of the Greek words.

[De Maria]

why would the works of the righteous be burned up?

That isn't what Peter Wilson said is it? Nor what I asked.

Since you didn't quote him but rewrote his statement, I have to assume that you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Here is what Peter Wilson actually said and what I asked:

Message #123:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
De Maria, the "works" that are burned up, are our works of righteousness, not our sins.

Why would our works of righteousness be burned?

I have explained that to you at least three times so far here
And that any of the works that do not get burned up receive a crown.

So, this response of yours does not address the question. The question is, why are works of righteousness burned up? That is the statement which Peter Wilson made which I questioned.

I think it would do you a lot of good to set aside things the Church taught you and read the Bible by doing topics studies
With an open mind and heart not trying to fit Catholic doctrine into it.

I have explained everything here repeatedly and repeated the majority of it on
The previous page 12 -- #'s 111, 115, 117, 119 & 120

On the contrary, I have traced the various Churches back to their origins. Only the Catholic Church goes back to Jesus Christ. Your tradition and all Sola Scriptura traditions trace back to Luther.

Therefore, since Jesus Christ only established one Church, that Church is the Catholic Church and Scripture tells me to obey that Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Where does this say that he paid for forgiveness for his own sin?

That question makes little sense. Neither I nor the Scriptures say that he paid for forgiveness.

However both the Scripture and I say that his repentance for his sin was insufficient. Even though God took away the sin, David still had to pay for the consequences of his sin. He paid for it by the death of his son. Note that David had to do nothing in order to make this satisfaction. God took the son in payment for the temporal effects of David's sin.

The Lord also hath taken away thy sin:

The Lord forgave David.

thou shalt not die.

Therefore, David would not suffer the ultimate penalty.

14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme,

But, because David's sin had temporal consequences

for this thing,

Because of these temporal consequences

the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

David's son born of Bathsheba must die.

You keep saying it, but it is not there.

Keep reading, you'll find it.

God did, we don't. Scripture says that Jesus did the purging, not us,

That is true. God does the purging in Purgatory.

and nothing we can do (including penance of any sort) can merit any portion of our payment for sin.

That is also true. But, none the less, if we don't do penance for our sin, we will not be justified.

The formula is very simple. Neither our faith, nor our works are sufficient to pay for our sins. However, if we do not have faith, we will not be justified. If we do not work we will not be justified.

James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

It sounds like you8 are conceding.

No. Not by a long shot.

Start a new thread on faith and works if you wish - but note that your mis-understanding here appears to be due to a lack of understanding of the Greek words.

Why don't I start a thread on faith alone? Lets see where it is in Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Only the Catholic Church goes back to Jesus Christ.

I proved that it goes back to Constantine in 325AD.

Therefore, since Jesus Christ only established one Church, that Church is the Catholic Church and Scripture tells me to obey that Church.

Scripture says obey God.

Acts 5:29-30
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
NKJV

You are even disobeying the man who you wrongfully claim as your first pope!

[De Maria]

I proved that it goes back to Constantine in 325AD.

No you didn't. You provided a document by Cardinal John Newman in which he stated that St. Constantine "promoted" the new religion.

Apparently, in your zeal against the Catholic Church, you twisted those words to your agenda and said that it means that St. Constantine created the Catholic Church.

However, if you studied history, you would know that St. Constantine, the emperor of Rome, put an end to the old Roman religion called "emperor worship". And he promoted the new religion of Christ known as the Catholic Church.

Scripture says obey God.

Acts 5:29-30
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
NKJV

And Scripture says that we obey God by obeying the Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

No you didn't. You provided a document by Cardinal John Newman in which he stated that St. Constantine "promoted" the new religion.

Partly right - it does say that he promoted the new religion, and it also tells about how he created the new religion through bringing in doctrines and practices from the old pagan Roman religion.

We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, proces­sions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.
(Source: An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine)

Note a few things from history:

1) These could only have been brought into the church from the pagan religion by Constantine after Constantine ended persecution of the church - early ion the 4th century.
2) Shortly after the end of the persecution, Constantine called a church council (Note: The Roman Church claims that only a pope can do this!- the man that the Roman Church claims to have been pope at the time did not call nor attend this council).
3) When these pagan doctrines were brought into the church, the religion itself changed. Some of the items are more benign, but others are clearly non-Christian.
4) Following this change to create the "new religion", the leader of the religion was given the title of one of the two founding religions, the pagan Roman religion. That title is "Pontiff".

However, if you studied history, you would know that St. Constantine, the emperor of Rome, put an end to the old Roman religion called "emperor worship". And he promoted the new religion of Christ known as the Catholic Church.

I have indeed studied the history of the church very much - I would recommend that study highly to you. The book Constantine's Sword" (written by a Roman catholic) might be a good starter for you.

And Scripture says that we obey God by obeying the Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

I see this referring to discipline, not obedience, especially not if the church teaches false doctrine. Further, I see nothing here telling me that we are told to obey a denomination.

Scripture says obey God.

Acts 5:29-30
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
NKJV

[sndbay]

Are you somehow claiming that Jesus Christ did not give the Church His authority?

Sincerely,

De Maria

What did you read?

What have you understood in what was there?

Scripture was posted in #113 And I asked that those reading note the understanding..

Perhaps you are in question of your own thoughts?

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Who is the servant to all in this scripture?

[De Maria]

What did you read?

What have you understood in what was there?

Scripture was posted in #113 And I asked that those reading note the understanding..

Perhaps you are in question of your own thoughts?

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Who is the servant to all in this scripture?

There were many verses in your message (quoted below) about Jesus' authority and about the nature of dominion and authority. None of which mention the authority of the Church. This is a common Protestant claim so, I was wondering if you also were claiming that Jesus did not give the Church His authority?

Number 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

Note that Understanding that Jesus fore told us in scripture :

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Note understanding scripture:

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? But I am among you as he that serveth.28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the understanding of scripture in Acts where authority felt they could do what Jesus did or what Paul was given through Jesus to do.. What shame was brought to those authority.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Note the understanding in scripture in teaching others:

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


Note understanding of scripture concerning the devil, and we need not fear the devil because Christ is with us, and holds all glory and dominion.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


"The Sabbath" ~Thou art Holy

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

This is a common Protestant claim so, I was wondering if you also were claiming that Jesus did not give the Church His authority?

Since you earlier told us that when you use the term "The Church" you mean specifically your denomination, then my answer to your question would be no, Jesus did not give your denomination His authority.

[sndbay]

There were many verses in your message (quoted below) about Jesus' authority and about the nature of dominion and authority. None of which mention the authority of the Church. This is a common Protestant claim so, I was wondering if you also were claiming that Jesus did not give the Church His authority?



Sincerely,

De Maria

My opinion is a free will choice in faith to follow Christ Jesus. And Christ did all that the Father asked of Him. I ask you who is the authority, power and strength, and who is the servant? "Christ told you who!"

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jeremiah 32:17-18 Ah Lord GOD! Behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, [and] there is nothing too hard for thee: Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name,
Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

John 5:23-24 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Note: There are seven churches according to scripture. (All seven are serants of God.) The Catholic church is one of the seven.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Suggestion: humble thyself, always rebuking the pride of satan, and serve in the love of God above all things.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

[De Maria]

My opinion is a free will choice in faith to follow Christ Jesus. And Christ did all that the Father asked of Him. I ask you who is the authority, power and strength, and who is the servant? "Christ told you who!"

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jeremiah 32:17-18 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, [and] there is nothing too hard for thee: Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name,
Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

John 5:23-24 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Note: There are seven churches according to scripture. (All seven are serants of God.) The Catholic church is one of the seven.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Suggestion: humble thyself, always rebuking the pride of satan, and serve in the love of God above all things.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

And I agree that Christ is the authority and the Church is the servant.

Now, I ask you, did Christ give His authority to His Servant, the Church, to teach:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations;

To baptize
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

To forgive sin:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

To guide our souls:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

To teach us the Word of God:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Or did Jesus establish a Church with no power? A Church which we can ignore and instead lean upon our own understanding of what the Scriptures say, of what Jesus said?
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Peter Wilson]

De Maria, sorry you got blamed for my post. :)
What I meant was that our works will be tested by fire, that is, as we build on the foundation of Jesus, His church. If what we build with is from our own ideas or making, like a cult might do, then it will be tested. If our works are righteous, and in keeping with what has already been laid and not add to it a different Gospel than was preached in the beginning, then it will stand and we will receive our reward. Our righteous acts will not be burned up, I didn't mean for it to sound like that, just the acts of righteousness that come from the wrong motives.
If from spiritual pride, whoosh, up it goes, if for the praise of men, whoosh, if for personal gain, whoosh, if for any other reason than to obey the Holy Spirit, (you do have the Holy Spirit don't you?) then it will be accounted as loss.
If you are not Born again, you can't either see nor enter the Kingdom of God.
When did you get Born again, what was your experience. Were you "buried" in baptism, or just sprinkled. If so, did you believe before you were baptized, do you have the signs following that Jesus said would follow them that believe?
To be honest, the way you interpret scripture is as far out as the Jehova's Witnesses.
You seem to believe whatever you have been taught by man.
Why don't you pray this prayer, I did, "Dear Father God, if I am in error and if I am in the wrong place, then tell me. For if you don't tell me, then when I stand before you, on that day, I will say, "It is your fault, I asked you to tell me and you didn't"".
Theres one thing I know about God, He wants us to be real, not religous.
He loves it when we come and reason with Him.
Isaiah 1
18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red as crimson,
They shall be like wool.
I don't mean that we should be dis-respectful, just real.
God wants to work in your life beyond the limits you set, by His grace, I have had many miracles happen to me and my family, from healings to supernatural provision to visions and dreams, to even hearing the audible voice of God on at least two occasions, to seeing angels and demons and even meeting Jesus, face to face in a vision. (Though I couldn't actually see His face, it was shining like the sun.) I have seen Heaven open and God on the throne, with Jesus at His right hand,(He was standing), there was a number of elders standing and sitting on the ground around the throne,and all the Angels of heaven around them, though back at a distance. Gold dust was floating down over all the worshippers at that time, it was awesome.
Please understand that I don't say that to make myself sound more "spiritual" than you or anybody else, if I have received anything, then it is the gift of God, certainly not my righteousness, I battle the desires and appetites of the flesh as do we all.
I just say these things to let you know that God is not just a belief system, He is real and active today, look at what is happening in Florida and other parts of the world.
In our Church ( Dayspring Church Australia) we have had some very significant healings lately, one man was healed from Parkinsons disease, another woman was in a coma on her deathbed with cancer, she was prayed for and completely healed.
These are the works that are righteous, let these be tested in the fire, this is what you have called for at this time. If you ignore the call then l trust in your own righteousness.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm judging you, I'm not, I don't even know you, I'm just trying to spur you on to do good works, after all, wasn't that your first love, don't you remember why you chose to follow the priesthood, to get close to God.
Rev. 3
2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

[Peter Wilson]

Oops, spelling error!If you ignore the call then l trust in your own righteousness.Just for the record, I DON"T trust in your own righteousness, I don't even trust in mine! :)

[sndbay]

And I agree that Christ is the authority and the Church is the servant.

Now, I ask you, did Christ give His authority to His Servant, the Church, to teach:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations;

to baptize
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

to forgive sin:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

to guide our souls:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

to teach us the Word of God:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Or did Jesus establish a Church with no power? A Church which we can ignore and instead lean upon our own understanding of what the Scriptures say, of what Jesus said?
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Matthew 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Matthew 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Matthew21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

__________________________________________________


DeMaria, if you can understand this man of authority in the following verses and what was in his heart. You will find your answer.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
_____________________________________________

So I ask you DeMaria, by who's authority is what done?

[N0help4u]

Matthew 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Matthew 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Matthew21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
__________________________________________________

DeMaria, if you can understand this man of authority in the following verses and what was in his heart. You will find your answer.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
_____________________________________________

So I ask you DeMaria, by who's authority is what done?

I'm not following how this proves or disproves purgatory??

[rhadsen]

De Maria,

Yes, I can get wordy. I tried to keep things clear by underlining any questions that I had.

Early on in this thread I pointed out the fact that despite your claim about the rich man in Luke 16:24 being in Purgatory, none of the Fathers share your view. In your most recent post you indicated that they could not have used the term "purgatory" in their writings about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because that word was not known to them, so they used the term "hell." Very well, if that's true, then some quotes by the fathers in which they describe the rich man as being in "hell temporarily" will suffice. Can you produce such quotes?

Now, regarding the chasm in Luke 16:26. I mentioned that it seemed to indicate that the rich man's fate was sealed. You replied, "Does that say the chasm is fixed permanently? Where?"

I'll freely admit that the text does not say that directly. But, turnabout is fair play. Can you show me where it says that the chasm isn't fixed permanently? Where?

You also asked me if there was any love in the hell of the damned. I'll freely admit that there probably is not. However, this is a parable. Jesus is telling this story to get his point across. He may, or may not be telling the story about an actual historical event. He may or may not change some details to get his point across. Now, you may say that the rich man can't be in hell because there is no love there. However, consider the following details from the story:

The Pharisees had a love of money. It appears that Jesus told this story about them in their presence. Part of God's will is that we help the poor. Will disregarding that will mean still being in God's grace and friendship? The rich man apparently was excessive and extravagant. He showed no concern for Lazarus despite the fact that it was clearly within the rich man's ability to help Lazarus. What does God say about that De Maria?

1 John 5:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

Matthew 25:21-46 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Does the rich man call Abraham "father?" Yes he does, but isn't it presumptious for him to do that when he ignored the example of Abraham? By his calling Abraham "father" despite not living with love for his neighbor, and his request for Abraham to send Lazarus on his own personal task, it seems that he is continuing in his disregard for others even after death. Rather than an apology to Lazarus, we see here a request for a special favor in the way of a visitor from the afterlife to warn his kin. The rich man still seems to think that he is in charge! Tell me De Maria, is disregard for God's will, disregard for the poor, consistent with being in God's grace and friendship?

I did not say, "spirits must be modified to determine what it means." I did say that the word translated "spirits" unless modified represents non-human spirit beings. (I'm not sure how you mixed that up, maybe you are skimming instead of reading?) Since you seem to disagree De Maria, with my contention that 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about humans, can you provide a verse in the New Testament where the word "spirits" not modified by an adjective or other word in the same sentence clearly indicates a deceased person? As you saw in the five verses that I provided (Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14) there is no way one could misinterpret those verses as speaking about humans.

Are you attempting to claim that Noah's contemporaries that died in the flood really were in God's grace and friendship by posting a translation that reads, "Which had been some time incredulous…."?

Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, De Maria, if those whose works don't burn end up with the same thing as those whose works burn, how is that a reward?

Rob