[De Maria]

De Maria--

The answer to your question is another question:

That is acceptable.

If a minority feels left out and put upon because of the actions of the majority in a school--should the minority have to leave a public place because of the actions of the majority? Or should the majority have to make concessions to NOT make the minority feel out of place? Aren't actions that make someone feel pushed into something they don't believe BAD? In other words--should a child have to feel like they have to pretend to be Christian to fit it, to NOT feel bullied or judged? Should they have to act like they believe the same thing as everyone else?

The answer is no. That is why they are free to go to a private school.

My point in making the question is this. I don't believe it is right or just for the majority to have to be forced to make concessions to the minority. If they did it of their own free will, I have no problem.

Seriously--it's Christians that think that everyone and everything should conform to them because they are the majority religion in this country that just ticks me right off.

So you don't believe in majority rule. That is the point I was making earlier.

I honestly believe that that whole "only one god" thing you have makes you have quite the lack of tolerance for other religions.

But this country permits freedom of religion.

After all--when's the last time a minority religion walked up to you on the street and asked, "have you found the Flying Speghetti Monster? Only He can save you! Convert! Be saved now!"?

I've never heard of that minority religion. But the Hare Krishnas frequently used to approach me. So did the Mormons. And so did Muslims.

So... I guess what I'm saying is that my belief is that neither you nor the state can tell me what to believe,

I agree.

and because PARENTS are ultimately in charge of their children, not TEACHERS--then PARENTS should tell their kids what to believe.

I agree. But I also believe that since Parents are ultimately in charge of their children, Teachers should not contradict what Parents teach. Teachers should be an extension of the Parents.

Teachers have far too much influence on kids, especially small kids. I don't want another adult to influence my child to another religion. Why can't we just have teachers teach kindness and respect and TOLERANCE, not a specific religion? Aside from the things they SHOULD be teaching, of course--reading, writing, math, science, history, geography, etc.

Well, I'm only talking about the permitting the prayers with which the parents agree.

On another topic though, that is why I never sent my children to Public or Private School. Learning is something which can't be turned off. Teachers, teach their students even when they aren't aware they are teaching.

I shouldn't have to pull my kids from a school that prayed--but you're right that I would.

And that is your right.

I simply do not believe the majority should be put in the situation where they are ruled by the will of the minority.

And then I'd sue the school district for teaching religion in a state institution--because like it or not, a prayer to a specific god in a school is endorsing ONLY that religion. The state can not endorse a religion.

I don't agree. If the school is doing what the majority of parents agreed upon, the school is simply recognizing the needs of its constituents.

One can act according to their religious beliefs without forcing them on to others.

Correct.

As far as your 2/3 majority--the rest of the world could pretty much vote Christians down

Major Religions Ranked by Size

Though in the US, they'd certainly beat out any other religion by a large majority

Largest Religious Groups in the USA

And that is what we are talking about.

So... see if you can get your laws passed. I'll keep fighting to make sure they don't.

That is what makes this country so great!

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

The answer is no. That is why they are free to go to a private school.

Tell me you're kidding with this comment. It's meant to be a joke of some sort, right?

I don't believe it is right or just for the majority to have to be forced to make concessions to the minority.

The problem with this is that the *majority* in some areas are ignorant. This is why we have a constitution and judicial system in place. To protect EVERYONE'S rights! This is what prevented the "majority" from getting creationism taught alongside real science in public classrooms. A near catastrophe avoided because our judicial system worked.

So you don't believe in majority rule. That is the point I was making earlier.

The majority wins the popular vote to office. They rarely *rule*. The majority of Christians oppose abortion. Again, minority common sense has so far prevailed here as well. Now if it can only prevail with stem cell research... I'll bet it does.

But this country permits freedom of religion.

I guess I'm going to have to put this on my clipboard when responding to you.. Just as importantly, this country permits freedom from religion!

I've never heard of that minority religion.

It's called Pastafarianism. It's founded on the premise that there is just as much real evidence for a Flying Spaghetti Monster as there is for the Christian God.

Well, I'm only talking about the permitting the prayers with which the parents agree.

In other words, prayers that YOU agree with, right? I'd expect you to at least make a token effort to hide your bias.

I simply do not believe the majority should be put in the situation where they are ruled by the will of the minority.

Again, nobody *rules*. I'm not sure why you're so fond of this word. Perhaps you're thinking of some childhood game you used to play. In our government there are systems in place to prevent dangerous ideologies from spreading too quickly and taking over. Yes, even in the face of a majority bias! They can eventuallyy win out, but not before a serious testing of our constitutional laws and the will of the people. Our founding fathers ingeniusely set up our constitution the way they did for exactly this reason. Unlike many foreign governments, ours cannot quickly be overthrown by fast rising militias, or religious zealots.

If the school is doing what the majority of parents agreed upon, the school is simply recognizing the needs of its constituents.

This statement is actually scary and shows a complete lack of forethought. In many places parents are ignorantly uneducated and clearly shouldn't have a say in the educational curriculum of our public schools! If the majority of parents want creationism taught, instead of scientific evolution, should any self respecting teacher go along with that? Maybe a silly question to ask you, because I'm guessing you'd agree. But the rest of us, want our kids learning REAL science, not Christian dogma. Perhaps you'd feel the same way if we allowed FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster) propanda to be taught to your child, instead of real science.

And by the way, let's clear this up... Christianity might make up the single largest religious segment of America, but fundamental Christianity most certainly does not. Many who happen to be born into the Christian faith (myself included), are not practicing Christians. When you take this into consideration along with all other religions and faiths, conservative Christianity (those who want prayers in schools), are an overwhelming MINORITY! Yet you still seem to think you run the country and our public schools. The last election should've quelled any such notion for you. It's apparent that the *majority* you're so fond of quoting has voted the 'Christian right' out of congress. And I'm pretty sure the oval office is next.

And THAT sir, is what makes this country so great! No one group can take over our government or public schools. But you can keep trying. It's a free country.

[De Maria]

Tell me you're kidding with this comment. It's meant to be a joke of some sort, right?

Nope.

The problem with this is that the *majority* in some areas are ignorant.

Are you saying the minority is superior to the majority?

Tell me do you believe in democracy?

This is why we have a constitution and judicial system in place.

The Constitution and the judicial system are part of a democratic process. They were put in place by the consensus of the constituents of this country in order to ensure we would not be ruled by a king that was across the sea. In order to ensure we would not be ruled by a minority of one.

To protect EVERYONE'S rights!

Correct. That includes the majority.

This is what prevented the "majority" from getting creationism taught alongside real science in public classrooms. A near catastrophe avoided because our judicial system worked.

Wrong. Creationsim was taught exclusively for a time, evolution has been taught exclusively for a time. But more and more people are recognizing that freedom of thought requires that the children be exposed to the most popular opposing theories and let them make up their minds. Shutting out Christian thought is simply censorship.

New Law Allows for Creationism in the Classroom

JACKSON, Miss. (AP) -- School officials can't prohibit teachers and students from discussing how life began under a new state law signed by Gov. Haley Barbour.
WLBT 3 - Jackson, MS: New Law Allows for Creationism in the Classroom

The majority wins the popular vote to office. They rarely *rule*.

The majority rules through the proxy they have given their elected officials.

The majority of Christians oppose abortion. Again, minority common sense has so far prevailed here as well. Now if it can only prevail with stem cell research... I'll bet it does.

In fact, abortion is on the retreat. The newest technology which views the child in the womb has done more than all the protests in front of abortion clinics. To convince a woman of conscience not to get an abortion, all you need do is show her a video of her child in her womb.

In addition, people have come to recognize the discrepancy in our laws which came about after the abortion laws were permitted. On the one hand, law pertaining to abortion rights tries to depict the human embryo as being simple matter, a blob of tissue. But laws pertaining to murder have always recognized that if someone kills a pregnant woman and the fetus dies, the person has committed not one but two murders. Therefore, law pertaining to murder all over the United States continue to recognize the humanity of the fetus.

I guess I'm going to have to put this on my clipboard when responding to you.. Just as importantly, this country permits freedom from religion!

No. It permits freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Therefore, religious people have a right to speak their religious mind.

It's called Pastafarianism. It's founded on the premise that there is just as much real evidence for a Flying Spaghetti Monster as there is for the Christian God.

And its wrong. There is no evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yet thousands of people witnessed Christ and His miracles and four eyewitnesses wrote about it in their testimonies of His life, the Gospels.

In other words, prayers that YOU agree with, right?

Prayers the parents agree with.

I'd expect you to at least make a token effort to hide your bias.

That is strange coming from someone that isn't hiding his own.

Again, nobody *rules*.

Yes, in a democracy, We the People, rule. Apparently you haven't learned enough about democracy to value the fact that you live in one.

I'm not sure why you're so fond of this word. Perhaps you're thinking of some childhood game you used to play. In our government there are systems in place to prevent dangerous ideologies from spreading too quickly and taking over.

Correct. And the ideology that Christians should be censored is a dangerous ideology indeed.

Yes, even in the face of a majority bias! They can eventuallyy win out, but not before a serious testing of our constitutional laws and the will of the people.

The "will of the people" means the majority rules.

Our founding fathers ingeniusely set up our constitution the way they did for exactly this reason. Unlike many foreign governments, ours cannot quickly be overthrown by fast rising militias, or religious zealots.

Correct. Read your own words carefully.

When militias overthrow governments, they have always formed dictatorships which rule the people against their will. The constitution is in place to prevent a minority of this type from ruling the government.

The Constitution does not prevent nor even consider "religious zealotry". The Constitution protects our rights to be religious zealots. The Constitution forbids the establishment of a national religion.

This statement is actually scary and shows a complete lack of forethought. In many places parents are ignorantly uneducated and clearly shouldn't have a say in the educational curriculum of our public schools!

Actually, what you just said is the really scary stuff.

1. This country is founded on respect for the individual. The idea that we know what is right for our children and our families is paramount in our founding documents.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
Declaration of Independence

2. Your statement reminds me of the fact that Hitler didn't think that parents should teach their children either.

Have you ever heard the truism, "if you don't know history, you are likely to repeat its mistakes."

If the majority of parents want creationism taught, instead of scientific evolution, should any self respecting teacher go along with that?

Yes. Teachers aren't there to promote their own agenda. They are extensions of the parents. Unfortunately, this is not yet recognized by the state which considers teachers an extension of the government.

Maybe a silly question to ask you, because I'm guessing you'd agree. But the rest of us, want our kids learning REAL science, not Christian dogma. Perhaps you'd feel the same way if we allowed FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster) propanda to be taught to your child, instead of real science.

You should have the right to have your child taught whatever you consider is real science. I should have the same right.

And by the way, let's clear this up... Christianity might make up the single largest religious segment of America,

Correct.

but fundamental Christianity most certainly does not.

I'm Catholic.

Many who happen to be born into the Christian faith (myself included), are not practicing Christians.

True.

When you take this into consideration along with all other religions and faiths, conservative Christianity (those who want prayers in schools), are an overwhelming MINORITY!

THEN WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID THAT PARENTS SHOULD VOTE ON THE MATTER!!

Yet you still seem to think you run the country and our public schools. The last election should've quelled any such notion for you. It's apparent that the *majority* you're so fond of quoting has voted the 'Christian right' out of congress. And I'm pretty sure the oval office is next.

We'll see won't we.

And THAT sir, is what makes this country so great! No one group can take over our government or public schools. But you can keep trying. It's a free country.

Try to stop me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[excon]

Yes, in a democracy, We the People, rule. Apparently you haven't learned enough about democracy to value the fact that you live in one.

Hello again, De Maria:

I know you're ignoring me. I don't care. I'm sure it's because you don't have an answer for me, and you wish I would go away. Well, I'm not going to. Other people read here too.

I have pointed out several times during this discussion, that the majority cannot vote away the rights of the minority. You seem to think that it's not so. Ok, let's talk about it.

YOU have a right NOT to be searched without a warrant being issued based upon probable cause. YOU have that right. You have it because the Constitution gives it to YOU. The Constitution doesn't give it to you because you're the majority. It gives it to you because you're an INDIVIDUAL.

Let me ask you plainly, under our democracy, can the majority ever vote that right out of existence? It cannot. That's just so. That's apparently the part of THIS democracy YOU don’t understand.

That's fine. If you'll engage me, we can fix that. However, I'm sure I'll just be ignored again. K. Do you think that if you hide from the truth long enough, it’ll go away?

excon

[De Maria]

Hello again, De Maria:

I know you're ignoring me. I don't care.

No, I can't remember ever putting people on ignore. However, you are right. I have no idea what to tell you.

I'm sure it's because you don't have an answer for me, and you wish I would go away. Well, I'm not going to. Other people read here too.

I gather you've decided that you DON'T agree with me anymore?

I have pointed out several times during this discussion, that the majority cannot vote away the rights of the minority. You seem to think that it's not so. Ok, let's talk about it.

Please quote where you claim I said that the majority could take away anyone's rights.

YOU have a right NOT to be searched without a warrant being issued based upon probable cause. YOU have that right. You have it because the Constitution gives it to YOU. The Constitution doesn't give it to you because you're the majority. It gives it to you because you're an INDIVIDUAL.

Way off topic.

Let me ask you plainly, under our democracy, can the majority ever vote that right out of existence? It cannot. That's just so. That's apparently the part of THIS democracy YOU don’t understand.

Nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you want to discuss the rights of felons, or the right to a free trial, please start another thread.

That's fine. If you'll engage me, we can fix that. However, I'm sure I'll just be ignored again. K. Do you think that if you hide from the truth long enough, it’ll go away?

Excon

No and repeating a lie long enough won't make it true.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[excon]

Hello again, De Maria:

It's true, I used another of the 10 rights you have as an individual instead of the one we're talking about here. I used it as an example of how THAT right, just like the minority's right to NOT have religion shoved down their throat, can't be taken away.

I guesss the comparison didn't work. I thought you might get it - but no... In fact, nothing is going to work with you. You don't want to discuss. You want to pronounce. K. I'll let you live in your ignorance.

excon

[NowWhat]

I am not sure I want to throw my 2 cents in here, in fear of whatever I say being taken the wrong way, but here goes...

Even though there is no prayer "time" at my daughter's school, she still prays. Whenever she wants. If she feels the need before a test or before going on the playground, she prays. She prays that God blesses her food.
She prays at will. Does she "disturb" other kids, no, but she DOES pray.

[NeedKarma]

And THAT sir, is what makes this country so great! No one group can take over our government or public schools. But you can keep trying. It's a free country.

Try to stop me.

De Maria,
One thing I have noticed is that you seem to no sympathy or empathy for others who are different from you, in fact you seem to derive some pleasure in antagonizing others. That is not the case with all my christian friends I have around me. Also you mention that you were once an atheist and during that period you did awful deeds, you then blame those deeds on the fact that you were an atheist. I have concluded that your views most certainly do not represent the views of christians but of those of a tortured soul. I hope you find some sort of internal peace, I mostly hope this for your children.

[excon]

Even though there is no prayer "time" at my daughter's school, she still prays.

Hello again, Now:

You actually point out the crux of the argument.

Of course she prays, and she should. She absolutely HAS the right to do that ANYWHERE in this great land of ours, and at any time of her choosing.

The difference is, "prayer time". Prayer time is some time set aside BY THE SCHOOL. It's ORGANANIZED time - ORGANIZED by the authorities who run the school who receive their paychecks from the GOVERNMENT. In other words they ARE the GOVERNMENT.

What your daughter is doing is INDIVIDUAL prayer NOT ORGANIZED by anybody.

I don't know. The concepts are simple to me.

excon

[NowWhat]

And you know, Synnen pointed out that if we allow one group to pray, then we should allow each group to have equal time.
And as much as I would love for there to be prayer in school - I would not want my daughter to pray to Satan (as the example Synnen gave). So, I am okay with her praying on her own. Does that make me intolerant of other religions? I don't know.
The way things are now are working for US, so if the change would involve all or nothing - then I would go for nothing.
Does that make sense?

[NeedKarma]

NowWhat,
Yes, it makes very good sense.
:)

[lobrobster]

Tell me do you believe in democracy?

Absolultely!

Are you saying the minority is superior to the majority?

No.

Shutting out Christian thought is simply censorship.

But no one is trying to shut out Christian thought.

In fact, abortion is on the retreat.

No one likes abortion. But I doubt that a rape victim is going to change her mind after viewing the ultra-sound of a 3 day old embryo.

And its wrong. There is no evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

How intolerant!

Yet thousands of people witnessed Christ and His miracles and four eyewitnesses wrote about it in their testimonies of His life, the Gospels.

This is very wrong! There was not a single eyewitness who wrote anything down! In fact, no accounts of Jesus' life were written down until YEARS after his death. You should try reading some real books written by real historians, instead of believing everything you hear.

Correct. And the ideology that Christians should be censored is a dangerous ideology indeed.

Again, no one is saying that Christians should be censored.

1. This country is founded on respect for the individual.

Right. This includes ALL individuals. Including those that don't pray, or believe in your god.

You should have the right to have your child taught whatever you consider is real science.

This is what I think is a REALLY dangerous thought by you. I am not a scientist, mathemetician, writer, or physicist. I (nor you), can know what is best for our kids to be taught regarding these subjects. I can teach my kids values. You can teach your kids to pray if you'd like. But you should have no say in what they learn about real world science or math! At least not if you want them to be competent adults competing in the real world.

Here's the thing... People like you want our children taught what YOU think is right. The problem is, you don't know anything about these subjects! As it is, we are losing our once held superiority in the areas of science, math, and physics. And it's only going to get worse if people like you have their way and start dumbing down this country by teaching things like creationism alongside real science.

I'm Catholic.

I was born Catholic as well.

THEN WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID THAT PARENTS SHOULD VOTE ON THE MATTER!!

I've already explained why. It's because the majority of parents are not experts in the required fields of study where accurate knowledge will be necessary for our kids to be competitive by the time they're adults.

If you had your way, the next generation of Americans will still be thinking in primitive 2000 year old terms believing that the earth is only 10,000 years old, while other countries make huge strides in molecular biology, curing diseases, and other sciences. The America you want will be left in the rest of the civilized world's dust.

[De Maria]

De Maria,
One thing I have noticed is that you seem to no sympathy or empathy for others who are different from you, in fact you seem to derive some pleasure in antagonizing others.

The only thing I'm guilty of is defending myself from your attacks on my character. See Messages #105 and 107 on this thread.

That is not the case with all my christian friends I have around me.

As I said before, you must be used to Christian friends who let you insult them, twist their words and otherwise walk all over them. As for me, I reserve the right to face my accuser and have them prove their accusations.

Also you mention that you were once an atheist and during that period you did awful deeds, you then blame those deeds on the fact that you were an atheist. I have concluded that your views most certainly do not represent the views of christians but of those of a tortured soul.

Please define tortured soul. As I don't feel tortured, I don't think I fit that category. But I don't know what it means.

I hope you find some sort of internal peace, I mostly hope this for your children.

It is one of the greatest things about being Christian since I converted. Yes, I do feel the peace that only Christ can give.

But I wonder, you and your friends always accuse me of antagonizing others. Yet, you don't acknowledge the insults first directed at me. Do you selectively read the messages or what?

Did you comment to lobrobster about accusing me of being biased?
In other words, prayers that YOU agree with, right? I'd expect you to at least make a token effo rt to hide your bias.

Or after twisting the meaning of my words to pretend I want to run the country:
Yet you still seem to think you run the country and our public schools. The last election should've quelled any such notion for you.

Or after insinuating that Christans don't want children to learn real science:
But the rest of us, want our kids learning REAL science,

So please explain your obvious partiality here. Others can be rude and unkind towards me and you turn a deaf ear. But when I respond in kind, you and other nonChristians on this forum, whom I've also confronted on the issue, get "their panties in a bind". (To use a euphemism that someone used on me.)

So thanks for the kind thoughts but maybe you should scrutinize your friends words and your own more closely. It is you who tries to stigmatize people without a tinge of conscience isn't it? Messages #105 and 107.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[RubyPitbull]

The topic of this thread is to gather people's opinions, not argue constitutional rights. It appears to me that we know what everyone's opinion on this matter is. Synnen, is entitled to her opinion. Excon, NK, Lobrobster are entitled to theirs. DeMaria is entitled to his. In reading through this thread, I actually have not seen DeMaria trying to convince anyone he is right. He has simply stated his opinion and explained why he feels the way he does. Why are people trying to convince him to change his point of view? Seems like you are all going in circles, and in doing so, frustrating yourselves. MY opinion is that organized prayer in public schools in the U.S. will never happen. DeMaria is entitled to hope that it will, and he is entitled to attempt to change it through either voting in like minded candidates, or filing a lawsuit. But, I will be waving to him, offering him a hot cup of coffee, a donut and a handshake, from the other side of the fence arguing against it. :) To each his own. No amount of logical discourse on a web site will change someone who is set in their personal convictions.

[De Maria]

Absolultely!

Glad we agree. Then you believe in the democratic practice of voting to decide issues?

No.

Glad we agree that it is unfair for the minority to tell the majority what to do.

But no one is trying to shut out Christian thought.

I thought you said,
This is what prevented the "majority" from getting creationism taught alongside real science in public classrooms. A near catastrophe avoided because our judicial system worked.

That sounds as though you believe that presenting Christian thought (creationism) in the classroom would be a catastrophe. In other words, that sounds as though you want to shut out Christian thought. So please explain yourself.

No one likes abortion. I doubt a rape victim is going to change her mind after viewing the ultra-sound of a 3 day old embryo.

But rape is permitted up to the day of birth in this country.

How intolerant!

Must everything be tolerated?

This is very wrong! There was not a single eyewitness who wrote anything down! In fact, no eyewitness account of Jesus was written down until YEARS after his death. You should try reading some real books written by real historians, instead of believing everything you hear.

Anytime you want to start a thread on the evidence for Christ vs the evidence for the spaghetti monster, I'm ready.

Again, no one is saying that Christians should be censored.

I believe I've proved in previous messages that that is exactly what is going on.

Right. This includes ALL individuals. Including those that don't pray, or believe in your god.

Correct.

... But you should have no say in what they learn about real world science or math!.

As you know I disagree with that thought entirely. I just want to highlight for other people to read and make up their own minds whether a parent has a say in everything their children learns or not.

Here's the thing... People like you want our children taught what YOU think is right.

Is that what I said, or is that what you are putting in my mouth. If that is what I said, provide the evidence that I said it.

The problem is, you don't know anything about these subjects!

Maybe, maybe not. But that is not the question at hand is it. We are talking about prayer in school. Not about what I know or don't know.

As it is, we are losing our once held superiority in the areas of science, math, and physics. And it's only going to get worse if people like you have their way and start dumbing down this country by teaching things like creationism alongside real science.

Again, you have proved that you want Christian thought SHUT OUT of the classroom.

I was born Catholic as well.

Something we have in common. I just mentioned it because I thought you were mistaking me for a Fundie.

I've already explained why. It's because the majority of parents are not experts in the required fields of study where accurate knowledge will be necessary for our kids to be competitive by the time they're adults.

But the parents don't teach the subjects in Public School. So what is your point.

In addition, the students taught by their parents at home are far ahead of public and private school children in every category on the SAT's and ACTs and every other test they have been subjected to.

If you had your way, the next generation of Americans will still be thinking in primitive 2000 year old terms believing that the earth is only 10,000 years old, while other countries make huge strides in molecular biology, curing diseases, and other sciences. The America you want will be left in the rest of the civilized world's dust.

All you have to do is provide the statements I made which lead you to these outrageous ideas. Like the others before you, you are practicing a form of fallacious argument called "straw man". Obviously, no one wants such a world as you ascribe to me. So if you can make people believe that is what I want, well, you've won the argument.

Only one problem. I never said any such thing.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

Ruby,

I view this has nothing more than a healthy (and important) debate. Attacks (at least the ones made by me), are not meant to be personal. I also would be glad to offer Demaria a cup of coffee from the sidelines, while opposing his views. It's great that he has a right to express them, vote for them, and even litigate for them.

However, I have to say that if we seem to be going in circles I'm afraid some of that is due to the circular logic that gets espoused on here. Cheers!

[RubyPitbull]

I concur lobrobster. And, it certainly does appear to be circular logic. If you all enjoy debating an issue that won't sway anyone, who am I to interfere? I just noticed that he is being placed in a position where he has to not only defend his opinion, but defend himself from people assuming too much and stating he expressed more than he has. But, if he is enjoying himself and wishes to continue, that is his option. As it is yours. :)

[lobrobster]

I thought you said,
This is what prevented the "majority" from getting creationism taught alongside real science in public classrooms. A near catastrophe avoided because our judicial system worked.

That sounds as though you believe that presenting Christian thought (creationism) in the classroom would be a catastrophe. In other words, that sounds as though you want to shut out Christian thought. So please explain yourself.

You can think, say, or worship whatever you'd like. No one is trying to censor you. But public classrooms are for teaching REAL science and learning about what is definitely TRUE! If you want to teach unfouded beliefs, that's what churches are for (most which are tax-exempt by the way). Teach anything you want in your church. You can teach your kids that the earth is only 10,000 years old, that there was a man on earth before a women ever existed, or that Noah brought dinosaurs on the ark, for all I care. But these teachings don't belong in a public classroom! Why? Because they are unfounded by any evidence or real scientific standard and are simply a matter of certain people's religious faith! My kid doesn't have to learn that. Just as your kid shouldn't have to learn scientology.

But rape is permitted up to the day of birth in this country.

I don't understand. What do you mean "rape" is permitted up until birth? Did you mean to say abortion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics do not believe in abortion under any circumstances, EVER.. If the fetus is doomed to a critical disease, if the mother's life is in jeopardy, or if the child is a product of rape. Do I not understand the Catholic position on this? I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.

Anytime you want to start a thread on the evidence for Christ vs the evidence for the spaghetti monster, I'm ready.

I might take you up on that. The thing is, I don't want to be considered a Christian basher. I'm really not anti-Christian. I'm simply for rational thought process, which too often contradicts Christian thought process.

I just want to highlight for other people to read and make up their own minds whether a parent has a say in everything their children learns or not.

Well, let me ask you this... Do you believe that home-schooled children should learn whatever their parents decide they should know? Suppose a parent decides that math just isn't very important, and instead, thinks that study in the pseudo-science of numerology is. Should they be allowed to send this child out into the world as mathematically illiterate adult, but who believes in the powers of numerology? Would that be fair to the child? Yet in a way, this is exactly what you're proposing (albeit in a lesser degree). But the principle is the same. There's a reason why there exists specific standards of learning for every child home-schooled, or not. So that ignorant parents can't unwittingly do harm to their children. If a parent doesn't think math is important, that child still must learn math at a nationally acceptable level. I think this is a good thing. You do not?

Is that what I said, or is that what you are putting in my mouth. If that is what I said, provide the evidence that I said it.

Sorry. Are you not implying that you know better than educators what your children should be taught? I thought this was the very thing we're debating here. That you, the majority, should be allowed to have your children taught what you like, because well, you are the majority! But here's the reality...

99% of all biologist agree on evolution and think creationism is nonsense! Biologists are a minority in the population, but they clearly are in the majority when it comes to creationism. Now who would I want dictating what my kids should learn in a science class? You, or a biology professor?

Again, you have proved that you want Christian thought SHUT OUT of the classroom.

Correct. I don't want it in a public classroom. But that doesn't mean I want to censor Christian thought. Why do you make that assumption? Christian thought can be practiced in your home, or in your church. That's where it belongs. If I were to believe in astrology, I wouldn't presume to have your kid have to engage in this practice at a public school.

Something we have in common. I just mentioned it because I thought you were mistaking me for a Fundie.

Well your views do seem to be on the conservative side. I certainly wouldn't call yourself a liberal, would you? -lol

All you have to do is provide the statements I made which lead you to these outrageous ideas. Like the others before you, you are practicing a form of fallacious argument called "straw man". Obviously, no one wants such a world as you ascribe to me. So if you can make people believe that is what I want, well, you've won the argument.

Only one problem. I never said any such thing.

I'm not suggesting that you want this to happen. Only that if you have your way, there is a very real chance this is what will happen.

[NowWhat]

The thing is, I don't want to be considered a Christian basher. I'm really not anti-Christian. I'm simply for rational thought process, which too often contradicts Christian thought process.

Are you implying that Christians are incapable of rational thought? Is this because many don't seem to agree with you? And since they don't agree, that aren't rational?

99% of all biologist agree on evolution and think creationism is nonsense! Biologists are a minority in the population, but they clearly are in the majority when it comes to creationism. Now who would I want dictating what my kids should learn in a science class? You, or a biology professor?

Just food for thought, my biology teacher in HS would not teach evolution, he didn't believe it. And is it an established fact? (Evolution?)

Correct. I don't want it in a public classroom. But that doesn't mean I want to censor Christian thought. Why do you make that assumption? Christian thought can be practiced in your home, or in your church. That's where it belongs. If I were to believe in astrology, I wouldn't presume to have your kid have to engage in this practice at a public school.

Christian thought belongs where ever the christian is. Be it the home, the school, whatever. Maybe the practice of open prayer belongs (in the world we live in) in the home or church. But Thought? I will say again, my kid prays at school - that is her right. She will not stop. Is she asking little suzy to join her? Not today.

[lobrobster]

Are you implying that Christians are incapable of rational thought? Is this because many don't seem to agree with you? And since they don't agree, that aren't rational?

Not at all. I am not in any way saying that Christians are "incapable" of rational thought. But I am saying that much/most of Christianity is not based on rational thought and even contradictory to it.

Just food for thought, my biology teacher in HS would not teach evolution, he didn't believe it. And is it an established fact? (Evolution?)

Evolution is about as established of a fact as any scientific theory gets. A biology teacher that refused to teach evolution should be fired. Period. They certainly have a right to their beliefs, but they have no right to be teaching biology.

Christian thought belongs where ever the christian is. Be it the home, the school, whatever.

That's fine. I'm not arguing that and I'm not sure why you think I am. I'm just saying don't push it on ME or others! I don't care what you're thinking or when you think it. Pray silently to yourself on YOUR time whenever you want.

I will say again, my kid prays at school - that is her right. She will not stop. Is she asking little suzy to join her? Not today.

I don't think you'll find many people who are against prayer in school who disagree with this. Your daughter can and should pray in school or wherever else she wants if that's what she believes. No one is arguing that. As long as she doesn't disturb anyone else.