[classyT]

Paul asks the question, is God being unjust by sovereignly choosing who he will save? No, because he can have mercy upon whoever he wants to. Where we get tripped up in this is when we fail to bring into the equation our own moral unworthiness as we consider this. We expect that God should be doling out eternal life to us because we are special; or at least we would like to believe that. But isn't the issue that we have with God our evil and unrighteousness? He doesn't have to be merciful to us but he does because he chooses to, not because he is obligated to. Moreover, Paul even argues that with Pharaoah, God raised him up (for the very purpose) of freeing Israel from captivity. Basically, as I understand it, Pharaoahs hardness of heart against God and Israel was part of God's plan because God ordained it so. And God was not at fault but Pharaoah was and is such judged by God.

My two cents.

I know I know I'm always GUSHING but WOW Jakester. The entire post is right on and I so agree with you. Beautifully stated. Right on whoo hoo, you go!

This is what I mean when I say that the natural man hates God's sovereignty. It strings his bean because the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!

[jakester]

This is what I mean when I say that the natural man hates God's sovereignty. It strings his bean because the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER ... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!

You are right, the natural man sees it that way. Well said!!

[Wondergirl]

the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER ... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!

Actually, it usually goes the other way--man thinks he owes God something for giving the free gift of salvation, and must somehow pay God for it by doing good works.

[jakester]

Actually, it usually goes the other way--man thinks he owes God something for giving the free gift of salvation, and must somehow pay God for it by doing good works.

Wondergirl - that is a good point... although it's been my experience that people favor that God owes them something. Maybe you have had more experiences in line with what you stated here?

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl - that is a good point...although it's been my experience that people favor that God owes them something. Maybe you have had more experiences in line with what you stated here?

My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.

It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.

[jakester]

My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.

It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.

That's an interesting perspective. I'm curious, how would you answer the minister's question? Not putting you on the spot but it's a thought-provoking question.

[Wondergirl]

That's an interesting perspective. I'm curious, how would you answer the minister's question? Not putting you on the spot but it's a thought-provoking question.

By grace am I saved, through Christ. It is a gift of God, not of my own works, lest I boast that I had something to do with it.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
There ARE strings attached to our salvation.
One is that we MUST have faith in Jesus Christ's salvation ministry.
Another is to be baptized in the faith.
Another is to prove that faith. A faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
So the bible says and so I believe.
It's like the TV ads say, this is a free gift all you need to do is pay shipping and handling.
The shipping and handling are the strings attached to that gift.
All gifts have some form of a string attached.
The one that comes with all gifts is that you must accept it or it is not a gift.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
There ARE strings attached to our salvation.
One is that we MUST have faith in Jesus Christ's salvation ministry.
Another is to be baptized in the faith.
Another is to prove that faith. A faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
So the bible says and so I believe.
It's like the TV ads say, this is a free gift all you need to do is pay shipping and handling.
The shipping and handling are the strings attached to that gift.
All gifts have some form of a string attached.
The one that comes with all gifts is that you must accept it or it is not a gift.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Dear Fred,
There are NO strings attached. The gift is free and clear, with free delivery by the Holy Spirit. He's the one who works faith in your heart, so even that is not of your doing. If faith has been worked in your heart and you die without being baptized, no problem. Of course, one who has had faith instilled in his heart will, out of love and thankfulness, become baptized and will show unconditional love to others as a thank-you to God.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
So you believe.
But I believe what the bible says.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
So you believe.
But I believe what the bible says.

Me too.

Eph. 2:8.9 -- For grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

[classyT]

My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.

It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.

Exactly. The natural man thinks he can somehow earn it because he is good enough. When someone confronts him with the truth... there is ONE way and ONLY one.. he rejects it. John 14:6 When he is told there is NOTHING he can do to earn it... he rejects that notion. Why? Because he actually believes that outside of faith in Lord Jesus he can somehow please God. I agree that many people will say, " i am a good person." But what do they say when you tell them that God's Word says... "all of your rigtheousness are as filthy rags"? Two thing happens.. one they believe it or two... they don't. Why don't they? Because they want God on their terms. So YES, I do believe the natural man HATES God and HIS sovereignty and he just really loathes the thought that there are NOT many paths to God. I didn't say he actually understood that he hated God's sovereignty.. in fact most would deny it. They would rather blame bad doctrine and or just hate the messenger.

[Maggie 3]

Predestination is a term that refers to God's determination in advance that something will happen in accordance with His fixed purpose. Let's look at who God is--
He is all-wise and all- knowing. He can do anything and everything we cannot do, and
He is everything good that we would like to be. He is Omnipotent ( all-powerful )
And Omniscient ( all-knowing ) and Omnipresent ( present everwhere ).
God is spirit; eternal and ever-living. He has no beginning or end. God is the Father of all creation, the Creator of all. He is all powerful and sustains the universe. He is the
Source of all life and everything that is. God gave Himself the name Yahweh.
We christians believe the Bible as God's Word and it teaches us about the past,
The present, and the furture. He could not tell us what the future is going to be if He did not know, but He knows everything. There are a lot of things that are a mystery
To us now but will be clear in the end.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

[Tj3]

Hebrews 4:6a ( Les Feldik is teaching this...)

"If (scary word isn’t it?) they (these people who had this much understanding) shall fall away…"


We’re going to stop right there. This word that is translated "fall away" and I put it on the board ahead of time, in the Greek is ‘parapipto.’ Now I’m not a Greek scholar and you don’t have to be, but here’s one instance where it pays to see the difference. This word is the only time it’s used in the whole New Testament. Where it’s translated in verse 6 that "if they shall fall away," it is a "parapipto," whereas the other word that we’re most familiar with like in II Thessalonians chapter 2 that "unless there is a falling away first" – that term is "apostasia" and it, too, is translated "falling away." But it does not have the connotation that this one does.


And I’m going to show you why, because since it’s the only time it’s used in the Greek in our whole New Testament, even the Greek scholars have a hard time really nailing it down. But, I went through enough and found that one great linguist of days gone by said, "The only way you can understand this term – parapipto – is to realize what it means in the Hebrew." And so the Hebrew word is "mahal." M-A-H-A-L. We’re going to look and see what that word "mahal" really is talking about.

I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.

Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?


------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. Apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

[sndbay]

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

Jakester,

Do you think that God meant that some vessels have no hope? That the vessels that God has used like servants, to show both honorable and dishonorable, are actually on the one side dishonorable servants of satan, and will not have a way of learning godliness? Can we be predestinent to an office and not yet knowing learn the ways in which best rules the result in goodness to that office?

Do you see that there might be a change that could be molded into being honorable. And in reality that as filthy rags that were doomed, NOW given a clean body because of grace. Set free from being filthy servants of unrighteousness, to live as a servant in righteousness.

When in God knowing each so well that He indeed uses each. Question: Is the outcome of each HIS prestinent calling for them, or rather the free will of the dishonorable servant which was known to God? AND for goodness God, used them to be an example?

Isa 64:4-5 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Isa 64:6-7 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Woe looks pretty gloomy for everyone, Except BUT NOW

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

agree (Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. )

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Jakester, I do not believe we are filthy rags any longer, because we were set free from what one man did once in the beginning and NOW by one man much great as brought us righteousness.

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Paul asks the question, is God being unjust by sovereignly choosing who he will save? No, because he can have mercy upon whoever he wants to. Where we get tripped up in this is when we fail to bring into the equation our own moral unworthiness as we consider this. We expect that God should be doling out eternal life to us because we are special; or at least we would like to believe that. But isn't the issue that we have with God our evil and unrighteousness? He doesn't have to be merciful to us but he does because he chooses to, not because he is obligated to. Moreover, Paul even argues that with Pharaoah, God raised him up (for the very purpose) of freeing Israel from captivity. Basically, as I understand it, Pharaoahs hardness of heart against God and Israel was part of God's plan because God ordained it so. And God was not at fault but Pharaoah was and is such judged by God.

My two cents.

Does God have the right? My two cents is that God has every right, because of righteousness and love that "He is." God has shown HIS love in sending HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. This was so we could overcome what satan, as the death of doomed eternity did in the beginning by one man... The evilness and sin goes on if we choose to walk in darkness... NOW we are set free from sin, given newness of life with the HOLY SPIRIT that dwells within us to guide and direct HIS way in us... HIS WAYs in righteousness and profitable as the gospel teaches in godliness...

If we think we sin, then repent and confess faith in Christ Jesus. Be ye holy for HE is HOLY. Believe in HIS worthiness.

~walk in Christ

[jakester]

I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.

Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?


------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

Tj3 - I think it is shrinking back. I think in practice it is what the Israelites did with Moses. He was charged with bringing them to the Land of Promise but they kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Ultimately, I think it is this kind of spirit which characterizes apostatizing. It is the attitude of "I really liked Christianity and it made sense to me, but now I'm really not interested in it anymore." Like the parable of the sower relays, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature."

[sndbay]

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?


------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

Thank you Tom .. this does go back to what the scripture said in being beware lest any man spoil you through philosoghy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, ways of this world and not after Christ... It is also pretty clear towards the warning of anti-christ, or many anti-christ that will come. We are to watch carefully, and follow no one other then Christ.

Tom, I feel the possible falling away is : Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[classyT]

I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.

Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.

What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?



------------------------------------
Apostatize

[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.

He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

Tom,

Well you know I respect your opinion . I guess I will dig deeper.

[classyT]

Thank you Tom .. this does go back to what the scripture said in being beware lest any man spoil you through philosoghy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, ways of this world and not after Christ... It is also pretty clear towards the warning of anti-christ, or many anti-christ that will come. We are to watch carefully, and follow no one other then Christ.

Snd,

I try so not to get irritated with your approach. OK.. I am calm and cool. I'm breathing slowly... NO ONE and I mean NO ONE here is following a tradition of man. K? And I'm pretty darn sure that Les Feldik AIN'T going to be the anti-christ.:rolleyes: And let me assure of something else... I am following Christ.but thanks anyway for your kind and thoughtful words of wisdom.

P.s. someone better pray for me... quick!! :D

[sndbay]

Snd,

I try so not to get irritated with your approach. ok..i am calm and cool. I'm breathing slowly....... NO ONE and I mean NO ONE here is following a tradition of man. K? and I'm pretty darn sure that Les Feldik AIN'T gonna be the anti-christ.:rolleyes: And let me assure of something else....I am following Christ.but thanks anyways for your kind and thoughtful words of wisdom.

P.s. someone better pray for me ....quick!!!!!:D

ClassyT, I am not sure why you feel the target that the scripture references would apply to you? or to Les Feldik? It was not a target against you, him, or anyone individual, yet it does apply to anyone who would permit themselve to be beguiled into following satan.

The scripture quoted tells us ... that we can be beguiled in following any traditions of men. IN otherword someone or ones other then Christ.

Apostatize

So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.

And that the same idea in falling away from one's belief as Tom had defined was like scripture says in following anti-christ once you had already confess belief in Christ.

~in Christ