[JudyKayTee]

Here is what My legal Aid sent to me from her blackberry: I looked at our "dog law" and the most recent one i could find was from 2006 . whenever it was last updated, it's a ing mess of an ordinance. convenient how they don't mention cats ... There is also no general animal control ordinance it only addressed dogs. there is a "mitigating factor" line in the ordinance that says "a dog shall not be considered vicious if it attacks a "trespasser" " ... however "trespasser" is not defined. so it could very well be another animal. i think that's a very important thing that we could conceivably argue, because in the very next sentence under "mitigating" circumstances, where it addresses the dog being teased or abused by the *person* attacked.

did you determine that your dog was confined in some way to your property when the attack occurred? in a fenced yard or tethered? and was he registered with the city? registration shouldn't do any kind of harm other than to get you a fine for failing to abide by that part of the law. the nasty part of this by-law is that animal control can kill a vicious dog on site. I know they tell folks that they'll use their head and not kill a dog unless they catch it being vicious (ie, in the heat of an attack), but that is certainly NOT what this law allows for. there are no provisions for punishment for removing the dog to another location to keep it away from authorities -- unless that's in another ordinance/by-law that i can't find. i wouldn't bring her home right now, tho.

you need to find out precisely what the animal control officers say that you've done. make them give it to you in writing, and go from there. don't accept the lady's bill for her cat ... that can be construed as you accepting responsibility for paying it. stay in touch over the weekend, I will be doing a lot of work from home.

All of this is excellent - being "silent" about cats is good, far better than addressing them.

Cats MAY not be mentioned because they are the same as wild animals - rabbits, deer, squirrels. They MAY not be considered to be domestic animals.

Curious to see what happens next -

[Aurora_Bell]

I agree, sounds hopeful. She expressed her disgust in the case earlier in the message, I think I like her.

[LadySam]

So agreed, that letter will do nothing to help.
So IF cats are categorized as non-domestic, this would be viewed in a somewhat different light? I've only ever had to deal with lawyers and courts as far as child support and custody go, I do read the law boards here quite often, I find them interesting.
Is there a burden of proof element here, if so who does it lie with?
I'm really just curious. My dogs are fenced when outdoors, my neighbors dogs are not.
I could actually have a similar situation here, I hope not, but it is not impossible.
Your legal aid representative sounds awesome.

[Wondergirl]

Or maybe outdoor cats (i.e. cats that are allowed to roam outdoors, even if they have an owner) are considered non-domestic? There's no cat licensing in your area, Bella?

[JudyKayTee]

Or maybe outdoor cats (i.e., cats that are allowed to roam outdoors, even if they have an owner) are considered non-domestic? There's no cat licensing in your area, Bella?

There is no licensing here, in NY - they are considered to be semi-domestic animals (or feral. As you know, lots of feral cats in NY).

Wish they would have licensing requirements but they don't. My dogs need rabies shots. Meanwhile cats are roaming around, hanging out with rabid raccoons...

[JudyKayTee]

So agreed, that letter will do nothing to help.
So IF cats are categorized as non-domestic, this would be viewed in a somewhat different light? I've only ever had to deal with lawyers and courts as far as child support and custody go, I do read the law boards here quite often, I find them interesting.
Is there a burden of proof element here, if so who does it lie with?
I'm really just curious. My dogs are fenced when outdoors, my neighbors dogs are not.
I could actually have a similar situation here, I hope not, but it is not impossible.
Your legal aid representative sounds awesome.

Yes, if Lady had injured another dog, a domestic animal, it COULD be construed as dangerous behavior. A cat, non-domesticated, is the same as a squirrel, rabbit, whatever (I've run out of the names of wild animals). The dog is not carted off if it injures a cat. In my area, interestingly enough, any animal that takes down a deer is subject to seizure and euthanasia.

I once got into a standoff with Animal Control at a Summer house with my GSD, my parents' GSD, my sisters' GSD, the neighbors' GSD - and a deer leg in the roadway. I knew where "our" dogs were. My neighbors did not. Apparently all GSDs looked alike to Animal Control (beige, black, large, small), and he was NOT taking ANY of our dogs anywhere. He eventually gave up but gave me the evil eye every time he saw me. Animal Control Officers in my area don't necessarily have an education in anything pertaining to animals - including humane treatment of animals. With luck this is Bella's situation. "I have a gun and a badge and so I'm going to intimidate you."

I don't intimidate, and I've stood toe to toe with some, particularly in dog bite situations.

The injured party always has to prove the cause of the injury - it's not innocent until proven guilty, but there must be sufficient proof. I'm not sure that's the case here, but I wouldn't know until I talked to people. What people think or think they saw or were told is totally immaterial. For example, Bella is a witness to the usual behavior and temperament of her dog - she is not a witness to this incident. (Did I say accident earlier? It's not. It's an incident.)

If you would hear a commotion and your (fenced) dogs were in a fight in your (fenced) yard with the neighbor's dogs you have met your burden of proof - you're fenced and somehow they got in. NOW - if there's a gaping hole in your fence and you knew it particularly if you caused it, different story.

I'm chomping on the bit to get into this. I really am! Anyone own an airplane?

[Alty]

Question. Does the fact that Lady was in the fenced in area of the yard when Bella came home make a difference?

She was in the fenced in area when Bella left, and in the fenced in area when Bella came home. We only have the word of the cat lady that she put Lady back into Bella's fenced in area.

Judy, I have a toy airplane, and a toy helicopter with a remote. It actually flies. It's so cool! Somehow I don't think that will help though. ;)

[JudyKayTee]

Question. Does the fact that Lady was in the fenced in area of the yard when Bella came home make a difference?

She was in the fenced in area when Bella left, and in the fenced in area when Bella came home. We only have the word of the cat lady that she put Lady back into Bella's fenced in area.

Judy, I have a toy airplane, and a toy helicopter with a remote. It actually flies. It's so cool! Somehow I don't think that will help though. ;)

Alty, you've got it - all Bella knows is what the neighbor (or neighbors) have said.

Bella wasn't covered in blood, agitated, anything else - I would gather.

AND - again, it depends on the direction a statement would take in person - if your animal, any animal, broke my animal's leg and jumped a fence in order to do so I would not be putting your animal in your yard. I'd be really too busy dialing the Police and Animal Control to do so.

Of course, if the cat lady hadn't put Lady back, well, that could be a bigger problem because could be (minimally) incarcerated.

I said in the beginning - how do "we" know how the cat's leg got broken?

[Alty]

Completely agree.

From talking to Bella, the cat lady stated that she called Lady by name, Lady came running to her, tail wagging, cat lady grabbed her collar, and put Lady back in the fenced in area.

To me that's the biggest bull I've ever heard. If the cat lady is telling the truth she didn't see the attack. But, she supposedly knew that Lady was the one that injured her cat. If I were in her shoes, you couldn't have paid me to approach the dog (one that she claimed to be terrified of) call it by name, and then put it back in it's fenced in area. I would have left, called the pound, and had them pick up the dog.

It just doesn't make sense. Also, no puncture wounds on the cat, none at all. This just isn't adding up as an attack. In fact, I doubt that Lady even left her fenced in area. I think Lady is just a convenient scape goat.

[Wondergirl]

I think Lady is just a convenient scape goat.

And a way to get the cat's medical bills paid.

Do we know if the cat owner had any previous dealings, positive or negative, with Lady? Or has made comments about various dog breeds (hearsay evidence, but maybe useful).

[JudyKayTee]

And a way to get the cat's medical bills paid.

Do we know if the cat owner had any previous dealings, positive or negative, with Lady? or has made comments about various dog breeds (hearsay evidence, but maybe useful).

And that's what an investigator proves (or doesn't prove) - and keep in mind, the cat lady MIGHT think she saw what she didn't see.

I find someone dead in my backyard, I'm standing over the body, the Police arrive -

Put cat in the place of someone; put injured cat in the place of body.

[Wondergirl]

No wonder I read Grisham and other legal thrillers. Appeals to my Teutonic Scorpio-ness.

[LadySam]

AND why was her concern to get Lady back in the fence before tending to her cat, unless someone else was carting the cat off to the vet at the same time.
My first thought would have been to get my cat to the vet while someone called animal control.
But who knows what she may have been thinking at the time.
It still doesn't add up.
And puzzling too that there are no lacerations or punctures, dogs have teeth.
The ordinance that I found may be dated but section 2 is interesting.
I've been doing a lot of reading today.
Dog Owners' Liability Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16

I don't have an airplane either, but I'll chip in some gas money for anyone that does.

[JudyKayTee]

No wonder I read Grisham and other legal thrillers. Appeals to my Teutonic Scorpio-ness.

Grisham gives me a rash - I just can't get into anything he writes (probably including his grocery list).

Anyway - Bella, I thought you wouldn't appreciate the 3AM phone call but I was thinking about this in the middle of the night.

If you are agreeable I could interview the cat lady by phone - I do it all the time. Often I leave a card and the person calls me back. Sometimes I have a "bad" address and there is no other way. A lot of times one party or the other is out of State. (I'll drive 6 miles one way but no more than that.) All sorts of reasons.

We'd need to be very clear, though. I would send you my professional report as an investigator, not as a friend. I find out what happened, how it happened - if it's not good for you, well, it's your report and you can line a bird cage with it, but I still have to send it. When I testify (which I do somewhat often) I have to be able to say that I've NEVER changed or slanted an investigation.

What I'm saying is that what I find out is what I find out - good, bad, indifferent. Honestly, I think at this point nothing could hurt you. She says it was Lady, she wants you to pay the bill, unless Lady jumps the fence on a weekly basis and strangles cats I don't see that it can get worse for you.

On the other hand - I know how to question in a manner which keeps your feet out of the fire (so to speak). I know not to ask a question if I'm not "pretty sure" what the answer will be.

And the cat lady may not talk to me.

Also the witness and anyone else you would like interviewed.

Think about it - ? It's what I do for some pretty big, all respectable law firms. If you DO decide to turn my report over to your homeowners company my report IS admissible. Of course, as I said above, if it's not in your favor, line the bird cage with it.

We've had a checkered past, you and I, but I really would like to help you and Lady get out of this - think about it.

If your law allows it, I could tape record the conversations (you'd have to check with your local Police Department. I don't believe the Internet) but that's no big deal. I take conversations all the time without recording them.

How, you say? I worked as a shorthand reporter in the Court system for a number of years - for the Feds.

[Wondergirl]

The vet should be interviewed too.

(A Time To Kill was Grisham's first and best. Recent ones are forgettable.)

[JudyKayTee]

The vet should be interviewed too.

(A Time To Kill was Grisham's first and best. Recent ones are forgettable.)

Absolutely - but his notes are worth more than an interview. Would he talk to me, an unrelated party? Probably not - remember, he's the cat lady's Vet.

[Wondergirl]

Probably one important detail would be to find out the condition/appearance of the cat's leg before amputation.

[JudyKayTee]

Probably one important detail would be to find out the condition/appearance of the cat's leg before amputation.

Absolutely - does the Vet have an OPINION about what caused the injury? Falling off a roof leaves different "damage" than having a dog play "make a wish" with your leg.

Where's Bella? Working, I guess (which is, in theory, what I'm doing).

[Aurora_Bell]

I'm checking in from my phone. I've been staying at the friends house with lady this weekend, e has been very upset by the whole thing, thought it might be nice to get her away and visit our lady. Judy can I Call you on Tuesday?

[Alty]

Just want to add something, but I would still check before you go ahead. About taping the conversation. I have many telemarketers calling here, and they always tape the conversation. By law they have to tell you that they're taping, but, if you're told, it's legal, as far as I know. But again, I'm not 100% sure. Also, telemarketing and legal business are two different animals, so it may not apply to this sort of thing.