[dwashbur]

My RSV says "second" for the I Cor. verse.

It's wrong. The word in the Greek is ESCHATOS, "last."

[Wondergirl]

It's wrong. The word in the Greek is ESCHATOS, "last."

I, in a Lutherlike way, was calling them the old and the new until ClassyT jogged me off center with "second." *hrumph* It's her fault.

[kp2171]

I always cringe when I enter the religious threads. Just can't stand how ugly it can get. Intriguiged by the questions... frustrated when it comes to verbal blows. I usually leave. I'm fine with conflict, but sometimes it just get too far for me. I'm not well read enough to volley back and forth also.

Real, honest thanks to all who are active in this thread. I've loved reading through it.

I've felt the grace of God at times in my life. I've struggled to really hear Him. I know damn well I've heard the voice of evil. Know this for sure. "wilderness" can take many shapes and forms.

Gethsemane seals this for me.

Brings me to tears.

I believe Christ was capable of sin, but chose to not sin.

If I'm wrong and Christ was, by nature, incapable of sin... well... fine then.

A man still laid down His life to save mine.

Either way, I'm humbled and grateful.

[Wondergirl]

real, honest thanks to all who are active in this thread. ive loved reading through it.

Thanks, kp, for saying that. We all honestly LIKE each other despite our differences, and that has come through in our responses. As a result, this thread hasn't dissolved into the usual ranting and fits, with Fr_Chuck closing it down.

[dwashbur]

I, in a Lutherlike way, wuz calling them the old and the new until ClassyT jogged me off center with "second." *hrumph* It's her fault.

I'm going to leave that one entirely alone!! :D

[classyT]

i always cringe when i enter the religious threads. just can't stand how ugly it can get. intriguiged by the questions... frustrated when it comes to verbal blows. i usually leave. im fine with conflict, but sometimes it just get too far for me. im not well read enough to volley back and forth also.

real, honest thanks to all who are active in this thread. ive loved reading through it.

ive felt the grace of God at times in my life. ive struggled to really hear Him. i know damn well ive heard the voice of evil. know this for sure. "wilderness" can take many shapes and forms.

gethsemane seals this for me.



brings me to tears.

i believe Christ was capable of sin, but chose to not sin.

if im wrong and Christ was, by nature, incapable of sin... well... fine then.

a man still laid down His life to save mine.

either way, im humbled and grateful.

I agree with the fact that either way, I am humbled and grateful! Amen to that!!

[classyT]

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."

I also know that in order to be saved we must believe in Jesus Christ, but it also says, "you and your household." Is that saying that just because I believe that my family will be saved too, even if they don't believe? No, of course not. The verses also say, "Then they (Paul and Silas) spoke the word of the Lord," to the jailer and his household. This is something else we must do, read and know the words of our Lord.
After this was done, and their wounds were washed, "then immediately he and all his family were baptized." There are other verses in God's word, that tell us to, "Repent and be baptized." Including this one in Acts, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

We are given this promise; us, our children, our grandchildre; as long as we do the will of our Father, and in that will, He tells us to Believe, Study to show ourselves approved, Repent and be Baptized. Then we will receive the gift that is promised to us.

Donna Mae,

I may be wrong on this but I'm going to tell you what I think concerning the jailer. I believe that promise was made to him because he was the head of the household and because of that position and his decision to follow Christ, his influence would affect his family and they would be saved as well. I don't think Paul meant his family was immediately saved because of his decsion.. in fact, I know he didn't because that thought isn't in line with any other scripture in the bible. AND I also think we can hold on to that promise for our individual families when we bring our children up in the Lord. ( I'm OPEN to anyone else's thoughts on this... please feel free to comment)

Also ( and we have discussed this before) when peter told those Jews to repent and be baptized he had no concept of the church. He was still a Jewish man going to temple ( we see that later on in Acts.) Paul ( the apostle who was given from the Lord Jesus the knowledge of GRACE and how salvation works ( see all of Romans) never says baptism is required to be saved BUT it is an important part of our obedience to the Lord.. it is an outward showing to the world of the inward change. We see it over and over again. Of course one should be baptized!! But not a requirement for salvation.


Whenever we read the bible, we have to put everything into context and rightly divide it.( Paul tells this to Timothy) Now why do we need to "rightly" divide the word? Because it can be "wrongly" divided. Before reading a book... know what the book is basically about and what is going on in the book and who it is written DIRECTLY to and who is speaking and WHY they are writing. Also take the chapter and what the writer is saying in the whole chapter BEFORE we try to understand one verse. Take for instance Galatians... I'm not going to go to Galatians to try to find info concerning salvation. WHY? Because it is a book about letting false doctrines in and adding something to our salvation. Do I make sense?

Acts is about how Christianity actually STARTED. In the beginning of Acts... those 12 apostles were completely clueless on the concept of gentiles in the church, or even what the church really was ( the bride of Christ) they had know knoweldge of GRACE. If you want to know how salvation really works and what is required... read Romans. Paul explains it... it is faith plus NOTHING. Jesus did it all... Romans is all about the GRACE of God. And GRACE is something not any of us earn or deserve. Again... I am open to discussion on this topic.

[JoeT777]

Also ( and we have discussed this before) when peter told those Jews to repent and be baptized he had no concept of the church.

Say again? So we can ignore everything in Peter because it was written in a certain order? Even still, most scholars, including Protestants, suggest The Acts of the Apostles was written before 1 Peter. What concept of Church would he have being given the Key to Heaven?

but not a requirement for salvation.

“I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Did Christ not know what he was talking since Matthew was written before John?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Did Christ not know what he was talking since Matthew was written before John?

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."—Mark 16:15-16.

[classyT]

Say again? So we can ignore everything in Peter because it was written in a certain order? Even still, most scholars, including Protestants, suggest The Acts of the Apostles was written before 1 Peter. What concept of Church would he have being given the Key to Heaven?


“I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Did Christ not know what he was talking since Matthew was written before John?

JoeT

Grumpy JoeT,

Now when did I say we could just ignore Peter? I didn't my little grumpy pal. Allzzzz I said was that Peter had no concept of the Church. He had no idea that the Lord was going to include gentiles and we are no longer under the law but under grace. He didn't... he didn't, he just plain didn't.

That was later revealed and given to the Apostle Paul to preach and he did. BTW, who was Peter addressing in Acts? Me? You? Or was it the Jews who had JUST put the Lord Jesus on the cross only a couple of months before?? Hmmmmm... I believe it was the later if memory serves me correct. Context, context, context... otherwise the bible would contradict itself.. and we both know that isn't true. Surely we can agree on that! :)

The apostle Paul teaches we are saved by faith plus NOTHING. Now, did I get baptized? Of course I did!! Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and doesn't follow in believers baptism is in disobedience. BUT it didn't save me. If I had died before I had gotten the chance, I would be in heaven right now. The Lord Jesus never left anything to man accept to believe. For without faith it is impossible to please God. If he had left something for us to do to earn our salvation or to keep our salvation, then our Christianity is just another religion where we hope and pray we are good enough and we did enough, and we did it right. Poppycock. Jesus paid it all... Salvation is of the Lord.

Now do it think for a second that I changed your mind?? / naah... but that's OK. It will have to be another agree to disagree.

[Donna Mae II]

Yes, Peter was addressing the Jews who crucified Christ (and all of Israel), but everything in the Bible is for our learning. When Jesus was preaching on the mountain, he was talking to people from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and the region across the Jordan. Does that mean that we don't have to follow what He was teaching them because He wasn't exactly talking to us. No. Jesus' teachings, and the apostles' teachings are things we study everyday, and follow in our daily lives. "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day."

[Donna Mae II]

1 Peter 3:19-21
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherin few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[dwashbur]

1 Peter 3:19-21
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherin few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Read the part in the parentheses. Baptism doesn't actually "put away" anything, it's an act of good conscience. It's the resurrection of Jesus that actually saves us.

[classyT]

Yes, Peter was addressing the Jews who crucified Christ (and all of Israel), but everything in the Bible is for our learning. When Jesus was preaching on the mountain, he was talking to people from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and the region across the Jordan. Does that mean that we don't have to follow what He was teaching them because He wasn't exactly talking to us. No. Jesus' teachings, and the apostles' teachings are things we study everyday, and follow in our daily lives. "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day."

ABSOULETY, everything was written for our learning... but not everything was written directly to us. When you put all the knowledge we have concerning Peter's preaching that day... we understand that Peter was still a good little Jewish guy.. going to temple. He didn't understand GRACE or what the Lord was about to do. ALSO would like to say that those 3000 jews are part of the body of Christ! But they didn't know it that day... and neither did Peter. If we do NOT put these verses in context the bible contradicts itself and that is simply IMPOSSIBLE...

Paul has clearly told us what we must do to be saved by the grace of God... Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ( notice the period) thee end

Romans is a book written to the church.. which is the body of Christ, which is us who believe. Romans also explains how to be saved and how salvation works. It also explains grace or the God's favor to us for no early reason.

Let me be clear.. the bible is for ALL of us. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But it must be put into context and Paul says we are to rightly divide it... because it can be wrongly divided.

[Donna Mae II]

It is amazing how everyone can ignore "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us,"--baptism saves.

[Wondergirl]

Paul says we are to rightly divide it....because it can be wrongly divided.

Can you say this another way? "Divide" has a "negative" (as in taking away) connotation. I don't think it is a common term in Christendom with the meaning you give it. (Dave might have a better handle on this.) I do get out a lot, but never heard that word until this Web site. How about "understand" or some other synonym?

[classyT]

1 Peter 3:19-21
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherin few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Donna,

Again, it must be put into context... Peter isn't writing 1 Peter to teach people how to be saved. And... I would also say he is speaking about a spirtual baptism. What actually happens to us when we get saved. Those eight souls in Noah's ark never did encounter water.. never touched any of them. This is clearly spirtual.

You know on a personal note... when I was in my 20's I met a couple who were involved in a church who believed you had to be baptised in order to be saved. I would go to their cell group and listen to him teach every Monday night. WOW was it good stuff... I learned so much. BUT... I eventually had to stop going because they were constantly trying to get me saved. I WAS saved... I was baptized even.. but because I said baptism didn't save me... they never accepted me as a born again Christian. It was at this time in my life I decided to find out for SURE if baptism was required for salvation. Logically it seemed crazy to me.. because you would have to rely on another human being to baptize you and I couldn't fathom the Lord leaving anything to man. BUT... I never was one to just go by logic... ha ( good thing cause many people think my logic is screwy at best.) :) Anyway I studied and prayed and asked the Lord to please help me know for sure. The truth is... I just wanted to be right with Jesus... I didn't have to be RIGHT with my knowledge of the word. I wasn't just going to go along with stuff just because that was what my parents taught me. After prayer and study.. I believe with all my heart baptism is an outward showing of an inward change. I believe a christian SHOULD be baptized because Jesus told us to. :) I believe when we put the word of God into context... it is crystal clear.

[Donna Mae II]

Classy

I will always believe that baptism is needed for salvation--and you will probably always believe that it isn't. So I guess there is no need for further discussion--I think we're both set firm in our beliefs. But I can always hope that you will see the true meaning of God's word. I know you think that's just my opinion, but I do believe it is fact.

[Wondergirl]

I will always believe that baptism is needed for salvation

I'm with ClassyT on this -- "By grace are you saved, through faith, and not of works [like baptism], lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9

Water (not grape juice or beer or Kool-Aid Cherry Flavor) is used for baptism, because water is the most accessible liquid there is. But even someone on his death bed, say, at the scene of a car accident or plane crash, can be saved by confessing Christ without being baptized.

[dwashbur]

Donna,

Again, it must be put into context...Peter isn't writing 1 Peter to teach people how to be saved. And ....I would also say he is speaking about a spirtual baptism. What actually happens to us when we get saved. Those eight souls in Noah's ark never did encounter water..never touched any of them. This is clearly spirtual.

Agreed. The word that the KJV translates "like figure" is basically "antitype," which indicates that the rescue of Noah and his family was the "type," or foreshadowing, of what was to come. As classyT says, the water never touched Noah or his family; in fact the 1 Peter verse specifically says they were "saved through," i.e. brought through the deluge and came out safe on the other side of it. Baptism is an "antitype" of this; just as Noah's salvation from the flood symbolized our salvation, so baptism symbolizes it in a more concrete fashion. That's why even the KJV translation renders it as a "figure," not a literal saving because baptism doesn't save anybody. It symbolizes the salvation that happens through faith by grace.