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Tj3 · May 12, 2009, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Athos

The speed of light.

I understand the speed of light - go on, please explain the rest of your assumptions.

galveston · May 12, 2009, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I understand the speed of light - go on, please explain the rest of your assumptions.

Umm, unless you have evidence that these heavenly bodies are NOT more than 6,000 light years away, then they existed before Adam, by differing amounts of time. If it takes 10,000 years for light to reach us from some point in the universe, then we are presently looking at what was there 10,000 years ago.

I don't think I have ever head anyone argue against that idea.

Tj3 · May 12, 2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by galveston

Umm, unless you have evidence that these heavenly bodies are NOT more than 6,000 light years away, then they existed before Adam, by differing amounts of time. If it takes 10,000 years for light to reach us from some point in the universe, then we are presently looking at what was there 10,000 years ago.

I don't think I have ever head anyone argue against that idea.

Actually, there are a couple of arguments against that idea, both scientific and Biblical. First, God made light, so why would you think that he would wait for the light to reach us to show us His creation? Second, have you ever looked into the assumptions that are made to determine the distance that the stars are from us? There are only two ways to know the distance for sure, and those are (1) to travel and measure the distance, which is impossible, or (2) triangulate on the object with another object far enough from earth to be significant - which is also impossible.

So what is done is described in this document:

Estimating Distances across our Galaxy

I won't try to go into this in detail, but just to point out a couple of assumptions made with this approach which may or may not be true:

1) They establish the temperature of the star by the colour. The problem with this is that the colour varies according to the speed of the star relative to us. Unless we know the speed, we cannot be certain of the colour. This change in colour is commonly known as the "red shift". Often this red-shift is also used to determine the speed and direction of travel of the star relative to us, using additional assumptions, again, with respect to the colour of the star.

2) They say that the size of the star is related to the temperature, so they can determine the size and thus the distance by the brightness. Well, the assumption in the first comment above is one issue which can cause errors in that estimate, but also dust and other small objects in space can alter the apparent brightness, or possibly even the colour, thus causing further inaccuracies in the estimated distance.

This just gives you a bit of the flavour, but clearly even these two assumptions can cause significant differences in distance. Nonetheless, even with greater distances, that does not prove that the universe is older unless you can prove that God chose not to create light when he created heavens.

Keep in mind that in verse 3, God created light. It was not until verses 14-17 that the stars were created and then God set them in the firmament. The nearest star is 4 light years away, yet this light appeared in a day, not 4 years, so it was instantaneous. We have no reason to believe that God put the stars out there and then said let's let them wait billions of years to see the glory of the heavens. That is contrary to what God said in His word.

Now you can never again say that you have never heard anyone argue against that idea. ;)

sndbay · May 13, 2009, 08:23 AM

Here's my problem, what has anyone offered as a result to the K-T extinction, when many species, including the dinosaurs, pterosaurs, and large marine reptiles, disappeared?

We acknowledge they did exist.. but when? If there is question in the years of age, then what does the opposed offer for answers?

I have offered my speculation. What else is possible?

galveston · May 13, 2009, 08:39 AM

Tom, thanks for the info.

Aren't we glad that none of this has anything to do with the plan of redemption?

Your reply suggests another theory, that of a universe centered around the Earth. That would make all the stars much closer to us than currently thought, as the triangulation would be based on Earth's diameter rather than its orbit.

There is some scripture to support this idea too.

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by sndbay

Here's my problem, what has anyone offered as a result to the K-T extinction, when many species, including the dinosaurs, pterosaurs, and large marine reptiles, disappeared?

K-T?

The scientific evidence points to the flood. Read the literature and see how often the scientists say that the fossils which have been preserved died suddenly in a deluge such as a flood or similar massive disaster.

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by galveston

Tom, thanks for the info.

Aren't we glad that none of this has anything to do with the plan of redemption?

Amen.

Your reply suggests another theory, that of a universe centered around the Earth. That would make all the stars much closer to us than currently thought, as the triangulation would be based on Earth's diameter rather than its orbit.

There is some scripture to support this idea too.

The stars may be closer, but even if not, it would not be an issue. I do agree though, that the problems in getting an accurate estimate are immense. All it takes is one erroneous assumption to make a huge difference. And because all of our observations are from this relative timny grain of dust in the universe, we have very little hope of validating the assumptions.

Just think of all that science has learned in the past 50-100 years. I have a science book from the around the year 1900 which gave an overview of scientific understanding at that time in various areas of research. So much of what they believed to be true based upon what they had found at that time plus assumptions has had to be revised. How much more have we yet to discover?

sndbay · May 14, 2009, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

K-T??

The scientific evidence points to the flood. Read the literature and see how often the scientists say that the fossils which have been preserved died suddenly in a deluge such as a flood or similar massive disaster.

Okay, then your speculation of dinosaurs and ape like man were the creation of Noah's time. Which would also put them in amoung life created on the sixth day.

Where I speculate that it was an existence before, and became void by the distruction caused in the trembled fall of satan's bondage from God.

N0help4u · May 14, 2009, 05:19 AM

Some people believe dinosaurs existed after the creation of the earth. One of their evidences is dinosaurs and mans footprints side by side dated the same eras.
If that is so, I think it would be that we can not understand this due to Hollywoods image of them in great abundance and violent. I am sure they were not something easily lived with but you know Hollywood.

sndbay · May 14, 2009, 06:48 AM