[Wondergirl]

Well, neither you nor I can, so we need to go by what Paul told us.

And certainly not our own interpretation of his words!

[Wondergirl]

Paul --
1. felt tremendous guilt and shame
2. loathed himself
3. spouted self-judging rhetoric
4. had negative feeling toward his own body
5. felt controlled by something he had no power to change
6. experienced a war between what he desired with his mind and what he desired with his body
7. was driven to a legalistic religion of control
8. feared when his legalism was threatened
9. had an "interesting" attitude toward women
10. Refused to seek marriage as an outlet for his passion
11. Wrote, "And to help me keep from being too elated by the abundance of revelation, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I sought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness' " (2 Cor. 12:7-9)
12. Also wrote, "You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" (Gal. 4:13)
13. Felt beyond redemption as per his Jewish upbringing and thus, even more, appreciated what Christ had accomplished

Yeah, yeah, the thorn was his eyesight.

[classyT]

Wondergirl,

Your assessment of the Apostle Paul is pretty unfair. He told us in Romans 7 about the battle that raged within him. There is just NO WAY you can be a victorious Christian without the battle. If you continue in Romans and get to Romans 8 you find he found the solution for his guilt, sin, struggle, flesh!! He didn't wallow in any of it. I believe it was HE who said he (we) are more than a conqueror AND whatever his state he LEARNED to be content or that he forgot those things which were behind and pressed forward. This isn't a man that had some big sin issue.

As far as the THORN.. no one has a clue what it was but when he found out that the LORD wouldn't remove it... he was MORE than cool because he LEARNED in his weakness, he could be STRONG through the Lord Jesus.

And as for the other hogwash about him fearing his Legalism was threatened... that is just downright laughable... this man understood GRACE far better than you or I ever will.

This Apostle suffered greatly to be a witness for my savior and the Lord allowed him something that no other human being has been able to do.. he was caught up in the third heaven and saw UNSPEAKABLE things. AND he wrote most of the new testament ( inspired FULLY by the Holy Spirit)

I don't know what exactly your point about Paul is... but he was a pretty special guy. A sinner saved by grace who LEARNED be a overcomer you didn't do him Justice!!

[Wondergirl]

Also, if that were the case, why would Paul suggest that when we come to Christ, He changes to take away homosexuality

In the next life, not in this one. This world and its residents are caught in the condition called sin as per Genesis 3. Relief will come only with Jesus' Second Coming. Then even the lion will lie down with the lamb.

Lastly, it would be out of character for God to give Paul a sinful desire to keep him humble.

Just as God caused you to be bathed in testosterone (and all that implies) in the womb? Or have you never experienced lust in your heart?

P.S. Homosexuality = sinful desire? I musta gone out with gay guys when I was dating.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,

Your assessment of the Apostle Paul is pretty unfair. He told us in Romans 7 about the battle that raged within him. There is just NO WAY you can be a victorious Christian without the battle. If you continue in Romans and get to Romans 8 you find he found the solution for his guilt, sin, struggle, flesh!!! He didn't wallow in any of it. I believe it was HE who said he (we) are more than a conquerer AND whatever his state he LEARNED to be content or that he forgot those things which were behind and pressed forward. This isn't a man that had some big sin issue.

As far as the THORN..no one has a clue what it was but when he found out that the LORD wouldn't remove it....he was MORE than cool because he LEARNED in his weakness, he could be STRONG thru the Lord Jesus.

And as for the other hogwash about him fearing his Legalism was threatened...that is just downright laughable...this man understood GRACE far better than you or I ever will.

This Apostle suffered greatly to be a witness for my savior and the Lord allowed him something that no other human being has been able to do..he was caught up in the third heaven and saw UNSPEAKABLE things. AND he wrote most of the new testament ( inspired FULLY by the Holy Spirit)

I don't know what exactly your point about Paul is...but he was a pretty special guy. A sinner saved by grace who LEARNED be a overcomer you didn't do him Justice!!!

Everything I listed is from his writings, from his epistles. Please read them.

It's really scary, isn't it, to think Paul was a homosexual.

[Tj3]

In the next life, not in this one.

No, Paul said that some in Corinth HAD been homosexuals - past tense.

Just as God caused you to be bathed in testosterone (and all that implies) in the womb? Or have you never experienced lust in your heart?

Are you saying that God gives us the desire for sin?

P.S. Homosexuality = sinful desire? I musta gone out with gay guys when I was dating.

No one said that homosexuality was the ONLY sinful desire, but you said that God gave Paul homosexuality, which is a sinful desire.

[Tj3]

Everything I listed is from his writings, from his epistles. Please read them.

I have read them and I am still waiting to see anything which might suggest that he was homosexual.

[Wondergirl]

I have read them and I am still waiting to see anything which might suggest that he was homosexual.

Please reread my list. Note especially how he knew others would despise him and scorn him (for his terrible and threatening eyesight problem? *cough*).

[Wondergirl]

No, Paul said that some in Corinth HAD been homosexuals - past tense.

Um, Tom, that's a verb tense thing, not healing from homosexuality.

Are you saying that God gives us the desire for sin?

No, you are implying that

No one said that homosexuality was the ONLY sinful desire, but you said that God gave Paul homosexuality, which is a sinful desire.

I didn't say God gave it to him.

[classyT]

Please reread my list. Note especially how he knew others would despise him and scorn him (for his terrible and threatening eyesight problem? *cough*).

Wondergirl,

I'm not SCARED nor do I think it is scary to consider he was a homosexual. It is simply not true. It makes more sense to think there may have been something physically wrong with the guy... like some kind of eye infection... ever seen green nasty goo coming out of someone's EYES... a GROWN man. They didn't have antibiotics back then AND it is only a theory.. ( incidentally, we KNOW he had something wrong with his eyes he said so).I mean if he WERE homosexual as you think he could hide it pretty well, especially back then, heck people in Hollywood do it all the time. I am NOT saying that is what the thorn in the flesh is.but I would suggest that to say a THRON would indicate some type of pain.. thorns don't really feel good. Not a SIN problem... he was more than a conqueror.

Everything you listed he most certainly did say... but you only tell HALF of the story. Like I said you can't have victory without the battle and he wrote over and over how he LEARNED to live and DIE to the flesh. Now if he died to his flesh ( he did get out of Romans 7 he said so in ROMANS 8), how could he be battling a sin issue? Give me a break. He worte against homosexual behavior!! ANDi'd be just as indignant if you had said that he was sleeping with woman. The Lord Jesus used him like none other... for a REASON. What an insult to the Lord and a man who understood the REAL meaning of living a Christian life and dying to his own flesh.

Everything I have said about the apostle paul is in his epistles... I read what you wrote and quoted. You told HALF of the story... please read it ALL!!

[classyT]

Paul --

11. wrote, "And to help me keep from being too elated by the abundance of revelation, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I sought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness' " (2 Cor. 12:7-9)
12. also wrote, "You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" (Gal. 4:13)


Yeah, yeah, the thorn was his eyesight.

One last note.. he wrote he was given the thorn in the flesh from being to elevated because of all the knowledge he was given and mysteries revealed and being caught up in the third heaven.. it was then the Lord allowed the "thorn". So I guess old Paul wasn't born the homosexual.. just came on him. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

He called his thorn a bodliy ailment... wow I wonder how many homosexuals out there think they have a bodily ailment?

[Wondergirl]

one last note.. he wrote he was given the thorn in the flesh from being to elevated because of all the knowledge he was given and mysteries revealed and being caught up in the third heaven..it was then the Lord allowed the "thorn". So I guess old Paul wasn't born the homosexual..just came on him. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

He called his thorn a bodliy ailment...wow i wonder how many homosexuals out there think they have a bodily ailment?

I know, I know, classyT. It truly is hard to wrap your mind around it at first, isn't it!

[classyT]

Wondergirl,

LOL I'm intelligent woman, but you got to give me something I can work with here... your theory sucks rocks... to be blunt. Sorry.

[Wondergirl]

I gave you a list from Paul's writings. Take a deep breath and let it out slowly. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, good. Now, open the windows in your mind. I know, I know -- they've been painted shut over the years. Mine had been too. Maybe get a pry tool and worry the seams a bit. Did I hear a cracking noise? Hmmmm, we might be getting there. Or maybe not.

[Tj3]

Please reread my list. Note especially how he knew others would despise him and scorn him (for his terrible and threatening eyesight problem? *cough*).

I see people even today who make demeaning remarks when people write differently (i.e. the large letters that Paul speaks about). Indeed, I see demeaning comments and scorn even on this board from some folk who cannot handle simple disagreement.

BTW, you do know that Pharisees had to be married, don't you?

Acts 23:4-6
5 Then Paul said, "I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, 'You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.' " 6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
NKJV

[Tj3]

Um, Tom, that's a verb tense thing, not healing from homosexuality.

Really? Let's see how you managed to get aorund this by a "verb tense thing".

1 Cor 6:9-11
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

The only verb tense thing here is that fact that they were homosexuals and are not now because of the washing in the blood shed on the cross.

No, you are implying that

I didn't say God gave it to him.

But you did. You compared being a homosexual to God giving me the desires of a man. By your unvalidated and unBiblical theory, that would mean that God gave sinful desire top Paul.

Or are you now backtracking on that point and now conceding that was incorrect?

[Wondergirl]

some folk who cannot handle simple disagreement.

I realize how rough it must be for you to be disagreed with, but that's life, Tom. You don't own this subject and this board. Or the truth.

[Tj3]

I gave you a list from Paul's writings.

You gave a list - none of which either says or even gives the slightest implication that he was homosexual.

[Wondergirl]

You gave a list - none of which either says or even gives the slightest implication that he was homosexual.

The windows of your mind have been painted shut too??

[Tj3]

I realize how rough it must be for you to be disagreed with, but that's life, Tom. You don't own this subject and this board. Or the truth.

Nice try, but we all know who those are who turn nasty when anyone dares disagree with them.

Now, how about that supposed evidence of Paul being a homosexual? Have you come up with anything concrete, or is that list which have absolutely nothing in it in that regard all that you can scrape together?