[arcura]

sndbay,
Thanks.
I also find it difficult to rate answers.
Why I don't know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Over a year ago I asked whether Martin Luther was schismatic or a reformer. We had an interesting conversation in which I promoted the idea that he was schismatic.

I WAS WRONG!

The topic of Luther falls a little flat with me. In my opinion Luther's theology is in error. However, during my studies on another topic I ran into a few pieces of information that on the surface didn't really seem to hold much insight to Luther; that is until I started reading a bit deeper. Finally, it drew me to the conclusion that Martin Luther was pathologically mad. It all seems to have started in a 'secret place'.

What was this 'secret place'? How did it figure into Luther theology?

It was in the cold winter of 1518-1519 when Luther found his fiduciary faith of sola fides. It has been described by many outside the Catholic Church as the single most edifying concept in modern Christianity – some of us Catholics would describe it a bit differently, but we won't go into that just now. The epiphany of Luther's took place in the Tower of the Monastery. It seems there was single eureka moment that sits in the forefront of modern history leading to a great movement – at least this was the hope. As ironic as this revelation will turn out to be, it will eventually flush Christian insight into a new era by the man who saw himself as the NEW PROPHET JOHN. Repent, Repent is the cry that brings fourth tangible results. Not the battle cry, but the tangible results that are odoriferous to Catholics. The epiphany came after hours of sitting in anguish; a special illumination came to Luther from God, so he thought as he grunted out his studies. Consumed with his mission, this is a long ago told but forgotten story…until in the wrings of Luther himself we can trace the time, the city, and the location of his epiphany. I've said many times, God has an ironic sense of humor, sometimes plain and simple, sometimes, if we remember Job, somewhat morbid.

It seems that Martin Luther was moved with the knowledge that there was absolute assurance of salvation by what we've come to know as 'faith alone'. Not, that the grace of faith is salvific but it provides assurance, not just the type of assurance of a confidant faith, but assurance of, so to speak, 'grasping the ring' of salvation. “Faith without the works which Luther had now come to detest, and attack “self-righteousness,” as in the Commentary on Romans “sola fides…quoe non nititur operibus illis [orationibus et praepartoriis”]“ ( Grisar, 1913, Luther I, p 378) One presumption made runs through man like goose fodder; is explained by Luther “the law, even as explained in the New Testament, which renders assurance of salvation possible only after the fulfillment of demands impossible to the natural man, is, it is true, necessary as a negative preparation for faith no to be regarded as the expression of the relationship desired by God between Himself and man.“ Here we find the piles of Luther's error. The gospels and epistles of the New Testament demand a 'full' relationship in which man is very capable of giving and is expressed daily in the virtues of marriage. Luther says that God merely reveals the law for 'educational' purposes.

Who was Martin Luther? Warren H. Carroll tells us, “There is no lack of evidence to answer that question. He left an enormous corpus of writings,” He also left us an enormous corpus. Being politically sensitive, he was rather round and tall for his day, with a booming voice. He spent many hours saddled to the kitchen table, if it could hold him, eating and drinking. “Contemporaries noted especially the brilliance of the black eyes deep-set in his beefy face, which could glow with inspiration or burn with anger, dominating and attracting his followers and cowing his adversaries…while, on the other hand, some remarks made by his opponents on the uncanny effect of his magic glance will be mentioned later.” (Grisar, Luther, I, 279); like one possessed by the spirit, or vapors. Some of Luther's students described him as “mysterious and obscure” (Ibid). But, such a man would undoubtedly have gastrointestinal issues but it seemed that Luther's vapors where produced in fires of the belly.

In the winter months of 1518 – 1519 Luther took to moving his place of study from his cold and dank chambers to his “secret chamber.” “From where he could hear, the croaking of the ravens and magpies about the towers in front of his windows sounded like the voices which spoke in the depths of his soul” (Ibid. VII, p. 79). It's here that he discovers 'faith alone;' it's here that he discovers his 'Evangel' - whatever that was. In his own, probably slurred, words from around the kitchen table, he is constantly heard to talk of his “secret place.”

It's in the Tower of the monastery, you might say in Luther's Chamber, where he first contemplated the esoteric voices in a murky confusion of the mind:

“The passage, Romans 1, The Justice of God is revealed in the Gospel, had, till then, been an obstacle to me. For I hated the words 'justice of God', which according to the use and custom of all teachers I had been taught to interpret in the philosophical sense, namely, as referring to the formal and active justice by which God is just and punishes the sinners and the unjust. Although I was a blameless monk, I felt myself as a sinner before God, suffered great trouble of conscience and was unable to look with confidence on God as propitiated by my satisfaction, therefore I did not love, but on the contrary, hated, the just God Who punishes sinners ; I was angry with Him with furious murmuring, and said : The unhappy sinners and those who owing to original sin are for all eternity rejected are already sufficiently oppressed by every kind of misfortune owing to the Ten Commandments, and as though this were not enough God wills [according to Rom. 1.] by means of the gospel to heap pain on pain, and threatens us with His Justice and His Anger even in the gospel.”

“For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man lives by faith.” Romans 1:17

Luther would have been familiar with St. John Chrysostom's Homily 2 on Romans: “But he who has become just shall live, not for the present life only, but for that which is to come. And he hints not only this, but also another thing along with this, namely, the brightness and gloriousness of such a life.” Distinctively less confused, less eaten with guilt of the conscience, Catholics then and now interpreted this verse as the prescribed and active justice whereby God punishes sinners AND rewords the faithful; apparently something dropped by Luther? I don't think so, that is not unless… the door hinge of Luther's New Revelation to mankind comes from Luther's inspiration from a 'secret place.'

The monastery containing Luther's throne was an old castle, Roman in architecture. The castle, no doubt would have been surrounded by a stagnant cesspool of a mote. The castle structure would appear to come out of the slug looking something like the old toilet sitting in the duck pond outback. Depending on the fortification itself, the building would sit 4 to six feet above the water, and then above that sometimes as much as 6 feet to 8 feet in height would be the ground floor and living quarters; most likely of the lord of the Castle. The intervening space is a hypocaust chamber for distributing heat under the ground floor, somewhat like a modern forced-air duct system. Vertical, shafts or hollow spaces transmitted the heated air (and smoke) up the castle wall and out one or more chimneys. The towers were usually built on the corners; some had upper portions projected out over the water for a strategic view. Under siege these towers had defensive uses, but during peace they were used as privies – one strategic view looked directly down into the mote.

Luther's office was a “privy situated above the Hypocaustom”; particularly, it would have been a privy over a hollow space or system of channels in the floor providing for the heating system. The system was inefficient in that it relied strictly on convection and no doubt by modern standards expensive to operate. But there is a more serious problem with heating the old castle, far beyond the economics; the hypocaust system was a very dangerous, especially so when the heat was cranked up. The fumes created by the fire in the furnace seeped up and wafted out of every nook and cranny filling the entire castle with fumes and noxious gases, most notably carbon monoxide gases. This particular privy would have been a warm place to study on a cold night. This would have been especially true of one who was gastro-intestinally challenged. As a result, it would be a good place to study the cosmic truths while, how should I say, discharging copious amounts of consumed beer; a great chair for a Pope want-a-be.

But, life does have its drawbacks at times; large concentrations of carbon monoxide inhaled over short period can cause death. However, long exposure to moderate amounts of CO causes one or more of the following: lightheadedness, depression, paranoia, confusion, memory loss, delirium, emotional disturbances, and hallucinations. During his meditations we read that Luther went to what was sometimes called a 'secret place' (no doubt he explained it this way as a matter of modesty) a place we call a privy which in this case was a room above the hypocaust or a placed called the 'cloaca', sometimes translated as closet (water closet i.e. urinal). This place would have been one of the warmest in the monastery – a good place to be during the cold, cold, winter of 1518 – 1519. And the most likely place where the concentrations of CO would be at their highest.

During one of Luther's 'Kitchen Table' conversation he turns to the voices heard – voices of the hypocaust: “On one occasion on this tower (where the privy of the monks was situated) when I was speculating on the words, etc. the Holy Ghost” (Lauterbach's "Colloquia” (ed. By Bindseil) Ibid. p396 But this isn't the only voice we here of the Luther's 'Tower'. I wonder if this is what old ladies used to call 'vapors'.

“The Lutheran pastor Caspar Khummer, who, in 1554, made a collection of Table-Talk, relates both circumstances (in Lauter bach s edition): “ semel in hac turri speculabar,” and further on: “With this knowledge the Holy Ghost inspired me in this cloaca on the tower”; Ibid. p 396. The 'cloaca' was a place where one relieved himself from a night of heavy drinking. “The mention of the cloaca explains the entry of Johann Schlaginhaufen in his notes of Luther's own words in 1532 : “ This art the Spiritus sanctus infused into me in this Cl.” Cloaca is abbreviated into CL, probably because Schlaginhaufen s copyist, was reluctant to write it out in full alongside of the account of the inspiration which Luther had received from the Holy Ghost ; the editor suggests we should read “ Capitel “; but the chapter-house is not to be thought of. “ Ibid. P 396

What irony God visits on us! What's the irony? The 'secret places' referred to is the place where Luther received his 'inspiration' was no less than the crapper. What are we to assume that his vision was a movement gone wrong, or was it all just all vapors? There's more, we've still got the Evangel and I've gone way too long.

I think he was quite mad. His actions seem to be the product of a physical or pathological 'illnesses'. I'm even more inclined to think Luther lost a spiritual battle in an ongoing war waged against the Church. Did Luther conspire with the Divine Will to be the 'Judas' of his day, and for what purpose, 'reformation'? What was really changed in the Church, none of its theological teachings? You'll have to excuse me but I've just about settled on the conclusion that Luther lost his battle with the devil within his white washed cell tossing his “scheiss” (or black ink as some would want to say).

Source: http://www.archive.org/details/grisarsluther02grisuoft

added: see also http://www.archive.org/details/luthergris01grisuoft

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

It all seems to have started in a 'secrete place’.

You lost me here, Joe. "Secrete" has to do with body fluids. I did try to read the rest despite the misspellings, but I finally gave up. I'll refrain from posting current negative writings about the pope. You're welcome.

[JoeT777]

You lost me here, Joe. "Secrete" has to do with body fluids. I did try to read the rest despite the misspellings, but I finally gave up. I'll refrain from posting current negative writings about the pope. You're welcome.

Slip of the keyboard. I don't know, secrete might work too.

[Wondergirl]

slip of the keyboard. I don't know, secrete might work too.

Are those your "typos" or the author's?

[JoeT777]

Are those your "typos" or the author's?

Mine why?

[Wondergirl]

Mine why?

You typed that entire passage letter by letter? Please proofread in the future. Typos tend to lessen the seriousness of an argument.

[JoeT777]

You typed that entire passage letter by letter? Please proofread in the future. Typos tend to lessen the seriousness of an argument.

The actual quotes were lifted from the sources I gave. The remainder is mine. I realize the spelling may be bad but surely you’re not complaining about that – well, I take that back, I forgot, you’re the librarian!

I fixed it!

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

The actual quotes were lifted from the sources I gave. The remainder is mine. I realize the spelling may be bad but surely you’re not complaining about that – well, I take that back, I forgot, you’re the librarian!

I fixed it!

JoeT

Thanks, but "secrete" wasn't the only one. When I see a paper (or a response) riddled with mistakes and typos, I stop reading, don't want to waste my time. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Btw, the link didn't take me anywhere -- another no-no. Proofread, proofread, proofread!

[JoeT777]

Thanks, but "secrete" wasn't the only one. When I see a paper (or a response) riddled with mistakes and typos, I stop reading, don't want to waste my time. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Btw, the link didn't take me anywhere -- another no-no. Proofread, proofread, proofread!

Well, I checked it over again, apparently I'm overlooking the 'big objection', and so I guess it'll just have to go unread. I can't write it in Latin – I don't read or write Latin well enough. I can't write it in German; I did have a few German classes decades ago, but I'm not good enough to write in German. I picked up a little Thai and Vietnamese, eons ago, but I can't spell a word of it – can't even pronounce half of it. I know Spanish well enough to order at Taco Bell.

Well I tried to keep you from having to down load the pdf but, this will do in a pinch. Internet Archive: Free Download: Luther


JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Well I tried to keep you from having to down load the pdf

Thanks, Joe. Will look it over with a critical eye. I like pdfs. No problemo (that's Spanish).

[JoeT777]

Thanks, Joe. Will look it over with a critical eye. I like pdfs. No problemo (that's Spanish).

Non guardare a chiudere.

I've never seen it on the menu at Taco Bell!

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

I've never seen it on the menu at Taco Bell!

After you hand the server a ten dollar bill and tell him to keep the change and he says "Mucho gracias," then you say, "No problemo."

[JoeT777]

After you hand the server a ten dollar bill and tell him to keep the change and he says "Mucho gracias," then you say, "No problemo."

I was looking at some of the citations, most are from volume 1, see Internet Archive: Free Download: Luther

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

I was looking at some of the citations, most are from volume 1, see Internet Archive: Free Download: Luther

I couldn't find the bibliography -- just some footnotes that were turn-of-the-century. The book has a copyright of 1913, but I smiled when I saw the fourteen digit CLSI-style bar code that can be read by our computers at my library.

Don't forget -- the absolutely last thing Luther wanted was to leave the Church. He was interested only in addressing its wrongs and oversights with the hope that they would be corrected. He was devastated when he was excommunicated.

[arcura]

JoeT,
I very much liked what you wrote.
It is very interesting and at this point I agree that Luther may have been mad of mind, heart, and passion.
That seems to be reasonable considering how and where he lived.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

JoeT,
I very much liked what you wrote.
It is very interesting and at this point I agree that Luther may have been mad of mind, heart, and passion.
That seems to be reasonable considering how and where he lived.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You apparently didn't notice what I had said -- "Don't forget -- the absolutely last thing Luther wanted was to leave the Church. He was interested only in addressing its wrongs and oversights with the hope that they would be corrected. He was devastated when he was excommunicated."

If he was mad, it was because he had lost his anchor.

[arcura]

Wondergirl ,
I agree that Luther did not want to leave The Church.
But he did attack it and even denounced the pope.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl ,
I agree that Luther did not want to leave The Church.
But he did attack it and even denounced the pope.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred

And with good reason. Do you know what was going on at the time?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Yes I know what was going on.
Don't forget that for many years I was very much against the Catholic Church and dug up much dirt to throw at it.
There is NO church that does not have some bad history.
The reason is that those churches are full of human beings.
Peace and kindness,
Fred