[classyT]

Sndbay,

What do you meant who is the Judge? The LORD will never ever do anything against what he has already said to be true. If baptism is a requirement for salvation, then it is a requirement. He doesn't just excuse and wink at one and then place different standards on another. Nope.. that my friend will never happen. You shouldda gone with the "well, the Lord hadn't died yet, therefore he hadn't rose yet, therefore baptism isn't needed"... lol I would have gone with THAT argument if I were you. :)

[sndbay]

You know Paul even says in one of his epistles that he can't remember who he baptized..he knew he baptized a family and a few others but you know..he couldn't recall how many!!!..if that was a requirement for salvation..he wouldn't have mentioned it in that way. for example..he wouldn't have said there was a few in this household that believed and a few here and there and as far as any one else..you know i just don't recall....

On that final day I do not put Paul as the JUDGE. AND perhaps you should read 1 John because it does example the [three in one] as witnesses, who will know who was baptized.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you understand what denial of the Holy Spirit would mean?

OK ..Mark...Jesus is speaking ..he was talking to WHO?? oh yes the JEWS! they needed to be baptized in his name..they were jews following the law that he came and fulfilled. Yes, when the JEWS got baptized back then ..it was a BIG DEAL! they were denouncing everything that had every been taught to them. same as when Peter spoke to the 3000.

I have no clue what you are talking about in 1 John....that isn't about water baptism..of that i can assure you!

I noticed you didn't pull out any verses about baptism in the book of Romans which explains salvation....faith plus nothing.

Psalms 17:4-5 Concerning the works of men, by the word of Thy lips, I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Hold up my goings in Thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.

Faith is to follow and believe both..Faith is by works!
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

To require ME to do ANYTHING other than accept is an insult to my LORD. He DIED, HE ROSE again... He said "it is finished" I'm asked to recieve this good news by faith. Then because I have received it..get baptized because it is an outward showing of the inward change....nothing more..nothing less. But it should be done...not because it is part of the plan of salvation but because the Lord ask us to.

Darn, i didn't mean to go on and on...we will agree to disagree..once again.

Revelation 22:11-12 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

[sndbay]

Sndbay,

What do you meant who is the Judge? The LORD will never ever do anything against what he has already said to be true. If baptism is a requirement for salvation, then it is a requirement. He doesn't just excuse and wink at one and then place different standards on another. nope..that my friend will never happen. You shouldda gone with the "well, the Lord hadn't died yet, therefore he hadn't rose yet, therefore baptism isn't needed"...lol I would have gone with THAT arguement if i were you. :)

Make your judgement as you have.. That's the point of fact.. I do not judge because it is your choice. You own and are to be accountable to free will within the heart and mind...
What I do is hear Christ.. what His will is would be mine, because as a child of God..I try to be obedent to Him. And repent when I fail in His glory because it was His promise in belief of His worthyness.

Are you baptized? Or are you just leading everyone into believing they need not be baptized?

[classyT]

Sndbay,

I can see right now that you don't even read my posts.. you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so.. fyi according to Paul's episltes... so this stuff about not judging me is kind of garbage. Sorry.

If you would have actually READ my post.. I said you should be baptized in obedience to Jesus but it is NOT a requirement for salvation.. I was baptized. So I guess you can JUDGE whether I am" leading everyone to believe they need not be baptized"... oh ye who does not judge.. lol ( sorry couldn't resist the hypocrisy)

[adam7gur]

Being baptized is a declaration to EVERYBODY , humans and spirits that a person is changing his / hers life from being a nonbeliever to a believer in Jesus . If I honour that declaration I am saved not because I declared it but because I kept the faith in Christ!! If I do not honour that declaration , will I be saved even if I was baptized? Don't make yourselves servants of words , but let the words be your servants!This whole thing reminds me the Sabbath and how the Jews tried to trick our Lord , but the Lord said that the man was not made for the Sabbath , but the Sabbath was made for the man!!

[sndbay]

Sndbay,

I can see right now that you don't even read my posts..you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so..fyi according to Paul's episltes...so this stuff about not judging me is kinda garbage. sorry.

if you would have actually READ my post..i said you should be baptized in obedience to Jesus but it is NOT a requirement for salvation.. I was baptized. so I guess you can JUDGE whether I am" leading everyone to believe they need not be baptized"...oh ye who does not judge..lol ( sorry couldn't resist the hypocrisy)

If you find my question, as a way for me to judge you, you are mistaken. You have twisted the original fact that the judgement was your determined value of baptism as you proclaim it to be. So by questioning what you proclaim as truth, others might also see you do believe in being baptized. That is a seed of truth...

[classyT]

sndbay,

I absolutely believe in being baptized! I just don't think someone who isn't won't be saved. I believe those on their deathbeds that haven't had the chance will be saved, I believe those that believe but are ignorant of baptism will be saved. I believe the stubborn that won't for whatever reason.. will be saved. There lies the difference.

By the way.. that second and third sentence you wrote... call me a blonde but duh.. I don't know what you are saying. I did however understand the first and the last.

Sndbay, the king james is easier to follow... LOL please don't get angry with me.. I just always struggle tying to understand you. I suppose it is my fault. Sorry :(

[sndbay]

Sndbay,

I can see right now that you don't even read my posts..you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so..fyi according to Paul's episltes...so this stuff about not judging me is kinda garbage. sorry.

This is a rude comment, when I have quoted scripture and asked a question. I had addressing your statement concerning Paul.

On that final day I do not put Paul as the JUDGE. AND perhaps you should read 1 John because it does example the [three in one] as witnesses, who will know who was baptized.

Followed with a question in scripture..
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you understand what denial of the Holy Spirit would mean?

I find my part in this conversation ends when you suggest what I offers is kinda garbage.

[classyT]

Sndbay,

All now don't go getting all mad at me. I never said Paul was the JUDGE. But he did say when a brother or sister was out of line they could be told. I guess you would have to JUDGE them in order to tell them they were wrong.

You know the Word says not to be easily offended... I really didn't mean it in a mean way... I just talk like I would in real life and it can come across badly when you read it.. thats is all. :) I do NOT think the stuff you offer is garbage... but I believe that we can tell judge one another as Christians and doctrine goes...

[sndbay]

Forgiveness is apart of truth.. So can we communicate further with honest hearts and minds?

What is your take on Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe this gift of the Holy Spirit can be given up or should be missed?

I don't feel people that have lived their lives as choice in forgetting to do as God instructs can expected to be saved..There is an important part of being given FREE WILL.

[DrJ]

There is a certainity in knowing double minded thought within the heart and mind of an individual is known by God and can not be masked. Choice to follow has to be clearly done and one's faith in Christ leads the way to walk in Him. So whether you choose to be obedent to the Father, to do what is written on all levels of righteousness, and without doubt, will be known by Christ on judgement day.

Note what is written and ask yourself, Does a child tell his father or brothers and sisters what will be ?
Truth is in listen to God, hearing His voice. There is none other to follow, or hear. May God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. (John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.)

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Matthew 18:1-3 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Christ is the Light.. The light of the lamp which is the law.. Obedience to what Our Father has written and walk in the light...

sndbay... I don't understand what you are getting at here. You quoted my earlier post and yet didn't reply with anything that had anything to do with it.

If you are here to just spit out scripture to those that you feel need preaching to, then that is fine... have fun but I hope that one day you learn how futile that type of teaching/attempt at conversion is.

You might get a little further at bringing others to Christ by having real, serious discussions with them and addressing their questions, rather than avoiding the answers by trying to hammer typical dogma down their throats.

Back to the original point... I, too, see that Acura is very well versed in the Bible and am a bit surprised to hear him, or any other, believe that Baptism is a requirement of Salvation. I may be wrong and it actually may BE a requirement... but I have not heard any interpretation of that before.

I am curious to see what else would lead you, or anyone to that belief.

[HistorianChick]

Act 8:34-38 "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

To me, this passage seems to recount that baptism is a byproduct OF salvation, not a requirement FOR salvation.

[DrJ]

Excellent way of looking at it, Hicky ;)

[sndbay]

sndbay... I don't understand what you are getting at here. You quoted my earlier post and yet didnt reply with anything that had anything to do with it.

I am curious to see what else would lead you, or anyone to that belief.

Posted #92

(ok, again this may be true but it doesnt say anything about whoever does not get baptized).

My intended post was to that which is written Word. The Word speaks of us being converted as a child of God, as being obedent to the written Word of Our Father. A child listens to their Father (commandment as well to honor your father, that which is what children should do) and many more scriptures that speak of obedience. Hearing the Word and following Jesus are works of faith in obedience. You said ok, then said it doesn't say anything about not baptised. Individual who would not are not obedent to the Word, and further posting have shown what they give up or choose of free will.

As for other posts I have already submitted was what is written concerning baptism.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Should a person deny this gift?

AND Each individual becomes a servant of righteousness when baptized. Meaning the individual begins the web of a garment in faith. This is a judgement in the final book of life. The water destroys evil that causes sin.

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Again do you walk in Christ or do you live life in your own way? I believe it is a choice in free will of accountability.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[sndbay]

Act 8:34-38 "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

To me, this passage seems to recount that baptism is a byproduct OF salvation, not a requirement FOR salvation.

HistorianChick, to me this is an important fact in determine whom can be baptized. As many are baptized as infants where this scripture clearly stated "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." This teaching should be induced to those who elect to submit children unaware of what they receive or believe. The dedication of a child at birth is another discussion, and ends up neglected when baptism done at birth.

1 Peter 3:20-21 is the requirement..

Choice..

[HistorianChick]

But wait a minute... You say that I Peter is THE requirement for salvation and that baptism is a part of and a necessity for salvation, right?

You are right when you say that I Peter 3:21 explains it.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

To me, and this is only my interpretation, it is saying that baptism doesn't save us (because what IS salvation, but the washing of our sin-stained heart in the regenerating blood of Christ) "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but "in answer of a good conscience toward God." It is the first choice we make (as you said, it's a choice, not an infant baptism) as a Christian. AS a Christian, AFTER the washing away of the filth of sin, i.e. salvation.

[classyT]

Forgiveness is apart of truth.. So can we communicate further with honest hearts and minds?

What is your take on Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe this gift of the Holy Spirit can be given up or should be missed?

I don't feel people that have lived their lives as choice in forgetting to do as God instructs can expected to be saved..There is an important part of being given FREE WILL.

I say this all the time but no one hears me... this is the MOST important thing you can do when reading the Word right after praying... UNDERSTAND WHO THE WRITER IS... WHY ARE THEY WRITING IT... WHO ARE THEY WRITING TOO! When you do that.. you are starting to rightly divide the Word of Truth that the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy about.

OK... in Acts.. what is going on? Jesus had just died on the cross , rose and right before their eyes had gone back to the Father...

Now, Did Peter understand anything about the Church? Did he think for one second it was going to take another couple thousand years before the Lord returned to set up his Kingdom? NOPE! He hadn't a CLUE about the Church or the Period of Grace.

Now, Who is Peter addressing? Me? no.. you... no who is talking to? OH YEAH... the JEWS the ones that just had JESUS CRUCIFIED! WOW. So when he tells THEM repent and be baptized you best believe they needed to. They had just rejected their messiah! In doing that at that time in history was HUGE.. they were denouncing all they had KNOWN under the Jewish Law.

Fast forward to Paul Epistles... Read ROMANS. WHO IS PAUL TALKING TO? Me, and YOU... the Church! You aren't going to find baptism as a requirement.

The BIGEST MISTAKE that people make when reading the WORD is mixing it up... not understand the context.. mixing law with grace. It isn't hard to understand if you will stop and figure out who the writer is talking to , why they are talking. It ain't rocket science.

[HistorianChick]

Original post by HistorianChick: But wait a minute... You say that I Peter is THE requirement for salvation and that baptism is a part of and a necessity for salvation, right?

You are right when you say that I Peter 3:21 explains it.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

To me, and this is only my interpretation, it is saying that baptism doesn't save us (because what IS salvation, but the washing of our sin-stained heart in the regenerating blood of Christ) "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but "in answer of a good conscience toward God." It is the first choice we make (as you said, it's a choice, not an infant baptism) as a Christian. AS a Christian, AFTER the washing away of the filth of sin, i.e. salvation.

You "agreed" with this...

sndbay agrees: Plus requirement continues in the three and "One".. Scripture holds stedfast to there being Our Father, Holy Spirit and Christ as One. It's Jesus baptism that is descriptive in noting as "One" 1st John 5:7

And, I like Pixie-Sticks. :) (lol... forgive my sarcastic humor... I like to be random, too!)

I'm sorry, but this statement seems like you're just pulling random thoughts out of your head. I don't understand how it pertains to the argument in question. Please, can you explain how this relates to the topic in hand?

Dr. J had a good point, if you address specific questions and arguments (as it were) in specific conversations, you may give more weight to your arguments, rather than changing the subject when you can't or don't want to address it.

[sndbay]

I'm sorry, but this statement seems like you're just pulling random thoughts out of your head. I don't understand how it pertains to the argument in question. Please, can you explain how this relates to the topic in hand?

Dr. J had a good point, if you address specific questions and arguments (as it were) in specific conversations, you may give more weight to your arguments, rather than changing the subject when you can't or don't want to address it.

agrees: Plus requirement continues in the three and "One".. Scripture holds stedfast to there being Our Father, Holy Spirit and Christ as One. It's Jesus baptism that is descriptive in noting as "One" 1st John 5:7

It was a refer: of further ordained authority shown in scripture concerning Water/baptism.

Bear Withness in Heaven

1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Heaven 1. The Spirit bears witness
Because 2. The Sprit is Truth
For 3. there are three
The Father, The Word, The Holy Ghost = three in ONE

Bear Witness on Earth

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Does this in any way suggest that we are missing something without Water included? It already suggests not water along..

[sndbay]

The BIGEST MISTAKE that people make when reading the WORD is mixing it up...not understand the context..mixing law with grace. It isn't hard to understand if you will stop and figure out who the writer is talking to, why they are talking. it ain't rocket science.

So tell me who and what is spoken of here?

Mal 3:16-17 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

And Here who does baptism save?
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: