[Tj3]

Pope and Scripture do not disagree.

While it is true there is disagree on the interpretation of Scripture, however there is but one absolute truth. Whether or not you realize it or not, what’s being suggested is God made one truth for you, one for me; a different truth everyone. Wouldn’t you say this philosophy makes our God schizophrenic?

JoeT

The source of interpretation can be as important as what we define as scripture.

[N0help4u]

The Bible does say eat but if you do not eat with a good conscience then abstain but NO fish Friday IS man made tradition and nothing more.
As for me I prefer the Bible over the contradictions of the Pope because as Galveston and Tom have said they do not agree and when it comes to man vs the Bible I will go sola scriptura if that is what you prefer to call it,
I see NO Biblical basis for following a fish Friday so NO I do not see where the Pope and the Bible agree on this.

[sndbay]

Please don't feel I am picking on just that one act of righteousness (baptism) that was changed by men..

I have also seen other denominations that change Holy communion from unleaven bread to using leaven bread.

This would be a direct example of feeding the leaven of man's doctrine, instead of the unleaven none as uncorrupted or infallible bread of righteousness.

[JoeT777]

The Bible does say eat but if you do not eat with a good conscience then abstain but NO fish Friday IS man made tradition and nothing more.
As for me I prefer the Bible over the contradictions of the Pope because as Galveston and Tom have said they do not agree and when it comes to man vs the Bible I will go sola scriptura if that is what you prefer to call it,
I see NO Biblical basis for following a fish Friday so NO I do not see where the Pope and the Bible agree on this.

There are no contradictions between the Magisterium of the Church [the teaching authority of the pope] and Scripture.

Furthermore, there is a clear Scriptural mandate for fasting. See my previous post. Does Scripture say we should not fast; that it's one of those evil things Peter makes us do?


JoeT

PS. Where is that dogmatic adherence to Scripture? Scripture says 'do fast'. You're saying 'do not fast'. Which is correct? Which is Truth?

[Tj3]

There are no contradictions between the Magisterium of the Church [the teaching authority of the pope] and Scripture.

Having studied scripture and the teachings of your denomination, I strongly disagree with your opinion on that point, but that is not the topic of this thread.

Furthermore, there is a clear Scriptural mandate for fasting. See my previous post. Does Scripture say we should not fast; that it’s one of those evil things Peter makes us do?

No one that I have seen is arguing against fasting. The two points that I see are making it mandatory to abstain from a particular food on a particular day - that is not in scripture, and secondly, I would suggest that Biblical fasting is the avoidance of food in part or whole for a specific period. I am not aware of anyplace in scripture where fasting is described as trading one type of food for another - are you?

[De Maria]

Having studied scripture and the teachings of your denomination, I strongly disagree with your opinion on that point, but that is not the topic of this thread.

No it isn't the topic of this thread. But having also studied the Scriptures and the teachings of the Catholic Church, I strongly agree that the Church always teaches in agreement with Scripture.

And I strongly disagree that you've studied the teachings of the Catholic Church. You have admitted on this forum that you have studied the writings of rabid anti-Catholics. Especially Dave Hunt.

No one that I have seen is arguing against fasting.

Good.

The two points that I see are making it mandatory to abstain from a particular food on a particular day - that is not in scripture,

And your point? Or do you want someone to infer that if it is not in Scripture it is a sin? If that is your point, provide the Scripture which makes it mandatory for all unsinful behavior to be listed in Scripture. Otherwise, you have no legs to stand on on this point.

and secondly, I would suggest that Biblical fasting is the avoidance of food in part or whole for a specific period. I am not aware of anyplace in scripture where fasting is described as trading one type of food for another - are you?

Again, prove that it must be in Scripture to be acceptable. Otherwise, if you can't, what is your point, that you can read your presuppositions into Scripture?

[Tj3]

And I strongly disagree that you've studied the teachings of the Catholic Church. You have admitted on this forum that you have studied the writings of rabid anti-Catholics.

False accusations will get you nowhere - that approach tends to say more about the accuser. I don't even know any anti-Catholics. Now please try to discuss with respect.

And your point? Or do you want someone to infer that if it is not in Scripture it is a sin?

No, I am telling you that scripture explicitly says that it is wrong to mandate that people abstain from certain foods.

1 Tim 4:1-5
4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
NKJV

Col 2:15-18
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NKJV

[JoeT777]

I Tim 4:1-5: This is a reference to the heretical religions of antiquity such as Gnostics, Marcionites, Manicheans. Some forbid eating certain meats at any time, condemned marriage, and some held that all things of flesh were evil. As to the penitential fast, the worthiness of the meat is not in question. This verse simply doesn’t forbid fasting.


JoeT

[Tj3]

I Tim 4:1-5: This is a reference to the heretical religions of antiquity such as Gnostics, Marcionites, Manicheans. Some forbid eating certain meats at any time, condemned marriage, and some held that all things of flesh were evil.

So why would anyone migrate such pagan practices into the church?

This verse simply doesn’t forbid fasting.

Strawman argument. No one is saying fasting is wrong.

[arcura]

Joe said it and it is true.
"The Pope and Scripture do not disagree."
The Church from its beginning has treasured holy Scripture and presevened so that all could have access to it.
It is our holy book, our guide and foundation.
It is read every day at every Mass.
All The Church teaching are based on and from it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Joe said it and it is true.
"The Pope and Scripture do not disagree."

Many examples to the contrary have been shown on here, but again that is not the topic of this thread. Start another thread if you wish to discuss.

The Church from its beginning has treasured holy Scripture and presevened so that all could have access to it.

The true church has but not all denominations. One denomination even put the Bible on their index of forbidden books!

[JoeT777]

Joe said it and it is true.
"The Pope and Scripture do not disagree."
The Church from its beginning has treasured holy Scripture and persevered so that all could have access to it.
It is our holy book, our guide and foundation.
It is read every day at every Mass.
All The Church teaching are based on and from it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you’ll permit me to add to your statement Fred, the written Tradition of the early Catholic Church is the Scriptures we know as the Bible.

“It is our holy book, our guide and foundation.” Amen.

Peace and Charity,

JoeT

[Tj3]

If you'll permit me to add to your statement Fred, the written Tradition of the early Catholic Church is the Scriptures we know as the Bible.

“It is our holy book, our guide and foundation.” Amen.

The Bible existed long before your (or any) denomination. Ask any Jew.

[arcura]

Yj3,
Since when did the New Testament exist before Jesus Christ and his apostles?
The book we know as THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE was promulgated by The Church no matter what you say of believe.
It IS an historical fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Fasting is done by individual with praying included... warning evil to bow down and flee from them...

It is written that a man should be kind to his wife, and likewise the wife her husband. To warn off bad spirits from satan, they can give of themself to fasting and praying. (voluntary, and it is kept private.) This is true throughtout scripture for those wanting evil to bow and flee from them.
1 Cr 7:5-6 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment

Otherwise then that, we walk in Christ from doing evil by holding fast to righteousness.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach [me] so long as I live.
1 Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

And in Faith

1 Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

Passover Feast... and celebration

Fasting from leaven bread during Passover feast was commanded (Exd 12:15) and we understand that God no longer wants burnt offering or the blood from sacrifices, because Christ became our Passover. The fasting from leaven bread during the 7 days would be done in honor and glory, showing we hold fast away from the corruption that can rise up amoung men in broken scripture. It is God's will that we hold fast to Christ, and His way.. Righteousness the uncorruptable, unleaven Bread of Life

[De Maria]

False accusations will get you nowhere - that approach tends to say more about the accuser. I don't even know any anti-Catholics. Now please try to discuss with respect.

I am. It is you who show a constant disrespect of our intellects by denying that which you previously admitted.

No, I am telling you that scripture explicitly says that it is wrong to mandate that people abstain from certain foods.

That is your false interpretation of Scripture.

1 Tim 4:1-5
4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,

This is true. Luther, Calvin and the Reformers departed from the faith.

giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

This is also true. It can be seen today with those who claim to be Christian but permit masturbation, contraception, abortion, euthanasia and many other sinful practices.

2 speaking lies in hypocrisy,

Like those who have twisted the Scripture to permit homosexuality.

having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry,

This is often aimed at the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church forbids no one to marry.

and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The Catholic Church permits us to eat all foods. The abstinence rules are only forms of mild fasting, sacrifices which are permitted in the Spirit of the Word of God:

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
NKJV

Amen. This is Catholic Teaching. The New Testament is the Book written by the Catholic Church.

Col 2:15-18
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NKJV

Exactly. And it is Jesus who said:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Therefore it is Jesus who gave His Church authority. And it is in obeying the Church that you obey Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

My question is this----

At one time, eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin.

But why? Because it is disobedience of the Church.

Example: A man forgets the day of the week, and not realizing it is Friday, eats meat. Is that a mortal sin? No.

Another example: A man, knowing it is Friday, eats meat in spite of the Church regulation. Is that a mortal sin? Yes. It is blasphemy against the authority of Jesus Christ which He gave to the Church.

Mortal sin was defined as sin that would land a person in hell. Hell was defined as a place of eternal punishment.

Correct.

Then eating meat on Friday was no longer a mortal sin.

As I have explained. Eating meat on Friday has never been a mortal sin. Disobedience of the authority of Jesus Christ vested in the Church, has always been a mortal sin.

Within one week, a sin that resulted in eternal punishment became no sin at all and eternal punishment was gone for this "sin".

How could such a thing be? One Friday, eternal punishment (the ultimate horror) became, the next Friday, no sin at all - no eternal punishment.

It's possible my understanding of this is incorrect, but I'm sure that was taught in recent times.

As I have shown, your understanding of this subject is incorrect.

Thank you for any answers.

You're welcome.

[De Maria]

The Bible does say eat but if you do not eat with a good conscience then abstain but NO fish Friday IS man made tradition

But it is a man made tradition with the force of Jesus' authority which He vested in His Church.

and nothing more.

That is quite a bit.

As for me I prefer the Bible

You mean that you prefer your own presuppositions over the Bible and over the Church.

over the contradictions of the Pope

The Pope does not contradict when speaking on a matter of faith and morals from the chair of Peter.

because as Galveston and Tom have said they do not agree

The Church and the Bible agree one hundred percent.

It is Sola Scripturist's who have misunderstood the Bible and twisted its meaning to their own destruction.

and when it comes to man vs the Bible I will go sola scriptura if that is what you prefer to call it,

It is Sola Scriptura which leads to man vs. the Bible. The Catholic Church teaches the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition in obedience to Scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

I see NO Biblical basis for following a fish Friday so NO I do not see where the Pope and the Bible agree on this.

Then you don't know Scripture very well. Jesus multiplied the FISH not the beef, pork or chicken.

As for me, I'll follow the Church which Scripture says is:
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

[Tj3]

I am. It is you who show a constant disrespect of our intellects by denying that which you previously admitted.

I never admitted any such thing. Now please, let's start showing some respect - or are you trying to get this thread shutdown?

That is your false interpretation of Scripture.

Just telling others that they are wrong and you are right is not convincing.

This is true. Luther, Calvin and the Reformers departed from the faith.

Departed from your faith perhaps.

This is often aimed at the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church forbids no one to marry.

I'd love to see where the Roman catholic denomination has allowed a practicing priest to marry.

The Catholic Church permits us to eat all foods.

If that were true, then we would not be having this discussion.

Amen. This is Catholic Teaching. The New Testament is the Book written by the Catholic Church.

There were no denominations, including yours, in the 1st century.

Exactly. And it is Jesus who said:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Therefore it is Jesus who gave His Church authority. And it is in obeying the Church that you obey Jesus.

Same old, same old - this old claim has been refuted more times that I can remember.

[De Maria]

I'd love to see where the Roman catholic denomination has allowed a practicing priest to marry.

Men are not born into the ministerial priesthood. They make a decision. They decide whether they want to be a ministerial priest or not.

If they decide to do so, then they VOLUNTARILY give up marriage. I've yet to hear of anyone being forced to make his vows at the point of a gun.

If that were true, then we would not be having this discussion.

That is false logic. It is true. The reason we're having this discussion is because you don't understand the Catholic Church or Her teachings.

There were no denominations, including yours, in the 1st century.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.

Same old, same old - this old claim has been refuted more times that I can remember.

You can't remember it being refuted because it never has been refuted.