[N0help4u]

Specifically what verses in the O. T. refer to Mary as the tabernacle?

[JoeT777]

So only Catholics believe Mary was sinless. And they believe that because of "tradition," not because the Bible says so.

As I recall you had stated that you were raised Lutheran. It seems strange that you would reject the Virgin Mary being that of all the Catholic doctrine Martin Luther rejected, he didn't reject this one.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

As I recall you had stated that you were raised Lutheran. It seems strange that you would reject the Virgin Mary being that of all the Catholic doctrine Martin Luther rejected, he didn't reject this one.

JoeT

Lutherans are never taught this about Mary, nor is it mentioned.

Luther was raised in the Catholic Church and was an Augustinian monk, and was steeped for many years in Catholic thinking. As time went by, he considered Mary worthy of honor, but not a sinless person.

[JoeT777]

Yes, he did.

Prove it.

[N0help4u]

Rejecting the virgin Mary? Who is rejecting the virgin Mary and I went to a Lutheran Church to and they never taught that Mary was always a virgin or any of that.

Lutherans believe she was a virgin until after Jesus was born. They DO NOT teach she still was AFTER Jesus was born. They say AND THEN Joseph KNEW her,

[Tj3]

Prove it.

Joe,

Rather than trying to point the spotlight on someone else, let us not forget that the onus remains on you to prove that scripture says that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin. So far you have provided nothing.

[Tj3]

Rejecting the virgin Mary? Who is rejecting the virgin Mary and I went to a Lutheran Church to and they never taught that Mary was always a virgin or any of that.

Lutherans believe she was a virgin until after Jesus was born. They DO NOT teach she still was AFTER Jesus was born. They say AND THEN Joseph KNEW her,

It is a common tactic of Roman Catholics to accuse non-Catholics of rejecting or demeaning Mary if we do not buy into their doctrine. I personally believe Mary was a very godly woman, but one in need of a Saviour nonetheless, and a normal woman who had a number of children after the virgin birth of Jesus.

[N0help4u]

Yes she was blessed above ALL woman but she was humble enough to KNOW she was NOT divine in any sense of the word.

[Wondergirl]

Prove it.

Luther was raised in the Catholic Church and was an Augustinian monk, and was steeped for many years in Catholic thinking. As time went by, he considered Mary worthy of honor, but not a sinless person.

Luther and I share a birthday. I'll channel him tonight and let you know what he says.

[tsila1777]

Open your eyes the Bible says NOTHING about sex between a husband and a wife being wrong so WHY IS IT such a threat to you that she may have actually been ONE with HER husband as God honors Biblically??

In fact the Bible says do not listen to *religions* that forbid and preach abstinance

It absolutely does! I was just reading that today.
1 Corinthians 7

1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.


2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.


3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.


4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.


5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

[N0help4u]

3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
Says it all!
Along with some other things that have been stated here.

[Wondergirl]

Luther also though polygamy was acceptable...

Luther is a mixed bag, as are almost all human beings. He got some things right and some wrong.

[JoeT777]

Luther also though polygamy was acceptable....

Luther is a mixed bag, as are almost all human beings. He got some things right and some wrong.

I didn't know that. Do you have anything that cites this, or is this based on your own knowledge?

[Wondergirl]

I didn't know that. Do you have anything that cites this, or is this based on your own knowledge?

Googling will suffice. You don't need me.

[Wondergirl]

I didn't know that. Do you have anything that cites this, or is this based on your own knowledge?

Here's one for you --

From Wikipedia ("Polygamy") --

During the Protestant Reformation, in a document referred to simply as "Der Beichtrat" (or "The Confessional Advice" ),[25] Martin Luther granted the Landgrave Philip of Hesse, who, for many years, had been living "constantly in a state of adultery and fornication,"[26] a dispensation to take a second wife. The double marriage was to be done in secret however, to avoid public scandal.[27] Some fifteen years earlier, in a letter to the Saxon Chancellor Gregor Brück, Luther stated that he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture." ("Ego sane fateor, me non posse prohibere, si quis plures velit uxores ducere, nec repugnat sacris literis.")[28]

(from the same article)
"On February 14, 1650, the parliament at Nürnberg decreed that, because so many men were killed during the Thirty Years' War, the churches for the following ten years could not admit any man under the age of 60 into a monastery. Priests and ministers not bound by any monastery were allowed to marry. Lastly, the decree stated that every man was allowed to marry up to ten women. The men were admonished to behave honorably, provide for their wives properly, and prevent animosity among them."

[N0help4u]

Here is what I found.
"I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter." (De Wette II, 459, ibid. pp. 329-330.)

I never heard that either but I would guess that since the Old Testament was full of people with more than one wife it was a culture thing and he was looking at it as okayed by God.

[JoeT777]

Here's one for you --

from Wikipedia ("Polygamy") --

During the Protestant Reformation, in a document referred to simply as "Der Beichtrat" (or "The Confessional Advice" ),[25] Martin Luther granted the Landgrave Philip of Hesse, who, for many years, had been living "constantly in a state of adultery and fornication,"[26] a dispensation to take a second wife. The double marriage was to be done in secret however, to avoid public scandal.[27] Some fifteen years earlier, in a letter to the Saxon Chancellor Gregor Brück, Luther stated that he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture." ("Ego sane fateor, me non posse prohibere, si quis plures velit uxores ducere, nec repugnat sacris literis.")[28]

(from the same article)
"On February 14, 1650, the parliament at Nürnberg decreed that, because so many men were killed during the Thirty Years’ War, the churches for the following ten years could not admit any man under the age of 60 into a monastery. Priests and ministers not bound by any monastery were allowed to marry. Lastly, the decree stated that every man was allowed to marry up to ten women. The men were admonished to behave honorably, provide for their wives properly, and prevent animosity among them."

Yes, I do remember now. Very good.

[Wondergirl]

I never heard that either but I would guess that since the Old Testament was full of people with more than one wife it was a culture thing and he was looking at it as okayed by God.

If nothing else, Luther was very German, very pragmatic, very practical. Thanks to Luther, Kitty's spice rack was probably in alphabetical order.

[Criado]

Well, no I couldn't agree to a statement like that. I only pasted a small part of St. Jerome's tract, maybe it would be wise to read the remainder. Brother refers to clansman -link.

Mark 6: 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.

JoeT

I think this "small part" is sufficient enough for me to tell; I am sorry about this but I do not know why Jerome is such an authority as to the definition of till when he, himself, do not fully understand what he is saying.

He said "Is the Lord to reign only until His enemies begin to be under His feet, and once they are under His feet will He cease to reign?"

Then, he concluded "Of course His reign will then commence in its fulness when His enemies begin to be under His feet." without even citing a supporting biblical verse.

In fact, the Christ will cease to reign when he finally put His enemies under His feet. The bible clearly indicates why it is till he hath put all enemies under his feet; the reason--because Christ will put down ALL rule and ALL authority and power to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[ScottRC]

Just FYI:

From the Lutheran Church MS website:

Q. I've heard that Martin Luther believed in Mary's immaculate conception, in her perpetual virginity and in praying to her. Is this how Lutherans still view Mary today?

A. Like Luther himself, Lutherans hold Mary in high esteem for the chosen role she played in God's plan of salvation. Lutherans have never objected to denoting Mary as the "Mother of God" (theotokos, "God-bearer"), since she was the mother of Jesus and Jesus was and is indeed God. Since the Son of God was and is sinless, it is evident that some miraculous "exception" was made in the conception of Jesus through Mary that prevented original sin from tainting the Christ-child. This accounts for Luther's comments about Mary being "entirely without sin" (as far as the conception was concerned). Lutherans today are not bound to Luther's personal views regarding how this was accomplished; in any event, it is clear from Luther's other and later writings on Mary that he did not hold to the view that Mary was personally devoid of all sin (which would mean that she would have had no need of forgiveness or salvation). Luther also held to the semper virgo (the perpetual virginity) of Mary. This, again, is a personal view to which Lutherans today are not bound. Scripture is not clear on this matter, and Lutherans do not regard it as a theological issue.

In his early years Luther was still greatly influenced by his rigorous Roman Catholic and monastic training. In his later writings he clearly rejects invocation to Mary and/or the saints as having no Scriptural mandate or promise. None of this undermines the opening sentence of this e-mail, which should be underscored as the final word on this issue.