 |
|
| Browse | Ask | Answer | Search | Join/Login |
|
|
||||
 Originally Posted by sndbay
For some reason De Maria seems to think that he or she is headed for a fiery place of punishment for his/her sins which he prefers to call "purgatory" <grin>. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years Revelation20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, The second death Revation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. As for the gulf I thought you all knew we go straight to heaven once we leave our bodies on earth which is when we die for real here on earth. (No fear in death) Luke 16: 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Catholic purgatory crucifies Jesus afresh by claiming that Jesus' death was not sufficient to cleanse sin. It is the equivalent of good works that God condemned in Matt 7
You have not only rejected the grace of God, you have shamefully crucified Christ among you." Paul employs the same phraseology in Hebrews 6:6: "Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." It should make any person afraid to hear Paul say that those who seek to be justified by the Law, not only deny Christ, but also crucify Him anew. If those who seek to be justified by the Law and its works are crucifiers of Christ, what are they, I like to know, who seek salvation by the filthy rags of their own work-righteousness? Can there be anything more horrible than the papacy, an alliance of people who crucify Christ in themselves, in the Church, and in the hearts of the believers? Of all the diseased and vicious doctrines of the papacy the worst is this: "If you want to serve God you must earn your own remission of sins and everlasting life, and in addition help others to obtain salvation by giving them the benefit of your extra work-holiness." Monks, friars, and all the rest of them brag that besides the ordinary requirements common to all Christians, they do the works of supererogation, i.e. the performance of more than is required. This is certainly a fiendish illusion. No wonder Paul employs such sharp language in his effort to recall the Galatians from the doctrine of the false apostles. He says to them: "Don't you realize what you have done? You have crucified Christ anew because you seek salvation by the Law." True, Christ can no longer be crucified in person, but He is crucified in us when we reject grace, faith, free remission of sins and endeavor to be justified by our own works, or by the works of the Law. The Apostle is incensed at the presumptuousness of any person who thinks he can perform the Law of God to his own salvation. He charges that person with the atrocity of crucifying anew the Son of God. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by sndbay
Yes we know about the gulf but your previous statement made it sound like you were saying that that is purgatory. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
The fact that there is a 1000 year period with Priest of God, we could need the time for teaching to any that did not hear or was taught falsely. God is not an unfair God. A 1000 years without temptation of satan is wonderful. As for paying for sin in purgatory NO! I agree Chirst wash the sins away for those who believe in Him. And as for the church doing anything to declare payment needed for sin, that sounds very prideful... We know who the pride comes from and I would hope it was rebuked. I do believe we need to have God teach us along our path.. we reap what we sow. . And rejoice in it.. we are not perfect. I hope this is clear. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Well if the that is the case then the millennium would be just as the Jehovah Witnesses teach and that would make the Catholic church and the Jehovah Witnesses believing the same.
Which it is starting to look to me like they do both believe Jesus sacrifice was not good enough. Same theory different ways works during the millenium/purgatory require works. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die. So, you are misrepresenting what it means to be set free from sin.
Exactly and since Jesus already purged the sins of believers (past tense), there is nothing for us to purge. End of story.
Actually there is. We don't pay for a gift.
And yet, if we do not have faith and do not work, we will not be saved. Isn't that a paradox? How do you explain it? Is it possible that Jesus died on the Cross so that we could merit our salvation? Yeah, I think that's the case, because even the hardest worker of all, St. Abraham, he had not entered heaven until Jesus died on the Cross.
Read the context:
Rom 8:12-17 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. NKJV Those who live according top the flesh have a debt to pay. Those who are saved are heirs.
Let's also go back earlier in this passage:
Rom 8:1-11 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV BTW, in the past you have demonstrated a tendency tp keep making your messages longer and longer until it was impossible to follow the thread. You will note, as I have told you this in the past - if you choose to post a long message rather than focusing on the point that you are trying to make, I will choose to boil your post down to what I think is the key focus of you message and focus on that point. Thus, if you want a point to stand out, keep your messages short and to the point. BTW, this last reference of yours has nothing to do with the question at hand. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Could you substantiate that with Scripture please? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I am addressing what you insinuate about Catholic doctrine however. We believe that Jesus sacrifice accomplished what Jesus set out to accomplish. Jesus died for our sins. The difference is that you and Tom and other Protestants misconstrue that statement. You act as though since Jesus died for our sins, we no longer have to do anything about them. But that is false. Jesus died for our sins to give us an example that we might follow in His footsteps. We must also die to our sins. We must also make reparation for our sins. That is justice. To believe otherwise is injustice. Is man more just than God? Have you ever heard of it being said that a murderer could simply apologize for his sin and he would not have to serve time in prison or indeed not have to die for his crime? I think if any such thing would happen, most people would cry foul. God is not less just. If you commit the crime, you do the time. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
How did he pay for our sins yet we still have them at death?
I gave you several verses that say Jesus paid for our sins by his sacrifice and asked you how it means that they are not forgiven before we die and you never did explain that. Your human reasoning on analyzing it according to a murderer meaning that we have to 'pay' after death does not prove your point whatsoever either. Your example of David's son dying does not prove that we have to pay after death either. His son DID die before his death so WHAT does that have to do to proving purgatory?? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Tj
1 John 1:9 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. NKJV De Maria This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when. It does not say where or when so how can you read into it that it means after death. We have explained that God cast sin away and forgives it once we confess and that it is no more remembered which would prove before death. I have yet to see how in the world you justify that it is after death. AGAIN to believe we have to be purged of our sin after death is crucifying Christ again and saying his death on the cross was insignificant. I gave you several verses on that. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
This conversation is really not to edifying, if we be brothers and sisters in the Lord, let's be to the building up of one another. If I be wrong, or you be wrong, let God be the judge.
Our works will be tested and burnt up if they are of no value. If you believe yourself to be saved, then rejoice, if you have a personal relationship to Jesus, then rejoice. If you want to prove that you are somehow superior in your belief, then repent. Whatever you have has been given to you by the grace of God, if you have worked out your own righteousness, then brag about it, may as well have your glory now, it won't do you much good in Heaven. Let's get our focus back on the most important thing, Jesus and Him being formed in us. We need to develop the nature of God, (Neh. 9:17 But You are a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness;) We should be using this opportunity to urge each other on to love and good works, the putting down of our fleshly desires and appetites that so easily draw us away. We are led away by our own fleshly appetites then the enemy Takes advantage of this and tempts and draws us with our own feelings. When we follow these feelings, our mind and our will follow along like obedient slaves. Let's wake up to ourselves, the time is short and while we squabble about this stuff, people are going to hell. Let's make a difference for Jesus, disipline our fleshly desires and renew our minds daily. That is, if we want to be disciples, we must be disciplined ones. Gal.:5. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. Galatians No Other Gospel 6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Paul's Concern for the Galatians 8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. 12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? 17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you! Colossians 2 1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ 6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. 1Timothy 3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. Instructions to Timothy 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Posting of #239 Scripture alone?
Originally Posted by Tj3 The body of Christ of which Jesus alone is the head. I do not place any denomination above.and Originally Posted by DeMaria Nor do I. But, since Jesus created the Church, I accept her authority: __________________________________________ Number 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city. Note that Understanding that Jesus fore told us in scripture : Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many Note understanding scripture: Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Note the understanding of scripture in Acts where authority felt they could do what Jesus did or what Paul was given through Jesus to do.. What shame was brought to those authority. Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. Note the understanding in scripture in teaching others: 1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Note understanding of scripture concerning the devil, and we need not fear the devil because Christ is with us, and holds all glory and dominion. 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. "The Sabbath" ~Thou art Holy |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
De Maria,
You provided some interesting responses. Regarding my point that the fathers appear to be in agreement that the rich man went to hell in Christ's parable in Luke 16:24 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus), rather than provide a quote by the fathers where they state that he is in purgatory you reply that you don't think that I have read all of the fathers. It seems that if you could have found a quote in which they state that he was in purgatory you would have posted it. But, since you couldn't, it appears that you attempted to create a diversion by your reply questioning how much of the fathers I have read. However, I can back up my position. Here are just a few of the fathers who agree with me: St. John Chrysostom For even if that rich man had endured none of the things I have mentioned, if he had passed his whole life without dread and care— why say I his whole life? Rather that one moment (for it is a moment, our whole life is but one moment, compared with that eternity which has no end)— if all things had turned out according to his desire; must he not be pitied for these words, yea, rather, for this state of things? Was not your table once deluged with wine? Now you are not master even of a drop of water, and that, too, in your greatest need. Did not you neglect that poor man full of sores? But now you ask a sight of him, and no one gives leave. He lay at your gate; but now in Abraham's bosom. You then lay under your lofty ceiling; but now in the fire of hell. CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 2 on Philippians (Chrysostom) St.Gregory Nazianzus For that rich man who would not give to the poor man even the scraps of his table, being in hell came to beg for even the least thing. For he sought for a drop of water, who refused to give a crumb of bread. Catechetics Online Irenaeus "(5) The rich man in hell(6) declared that he had five brothers, to whom he desired that one rising from the dead should go. IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK II Your quote by Pope Benedict does not unequivocally state that the rich man went to purgatory. However, the Pope John Paul directly states that he went to hell: This is well explained in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the Gospel of Luke (cf. 16:19-31). The rich man was condemned to hell, not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done. EWTN - Document Library - www.ewtn.com Regarding your question as to where Luke 16:26 indicates the situation that the rich man finds himself is permanent: And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. I mentioned that I did not believe that the rich man died in God's grace and friendship – which is a requirement for a stay in purgatory. You replied that since Dives calls him “Father” it indicates that he died in a state of grace. This does not prove that he died in a state of grace. He recognized Abraham, but it appears from the text that he did not follow the example of Abraham. Even demons recognize saints (Acts 19:15). (One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" Does this mean that the evil spirits are in a state of grace De Maria? It would according to your reasoning. When discussing 1 Peter 3:19 I stated that the Greek word translated “spirits” in the New Testament unless modified indicates non-human spirit beings. The word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You wanted to see the verses that I mentioned quoted, so here they are: Matthew 12:45: Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." Acts 23:8,9 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?" Luke 10:20: However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." Ephesians 2:2 In which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. Hebrews 1:14: Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? In none of the five verses just quoted above could the word spirit be interpreted as referring to a human being. As I mentioned above, the word “spirits” unless modified in some way never indicates deceased persons in the New Testament as far as I know. You seem to disagree. Fair enough. Can you find in the New Testament the word spirit (unmodified) where it clearly is being used to represent a deceased human? Regarding 1 Peter 3:20, the reference is to the story of Noah that we find in Genesis 6. In verses 1-5 of that chapter we find that there were sons of God having intercourse with the daughters of men. The resulting offspring would be hybrid, not human. Secondly, you seem to think that the purpose of Christ's visit in 1 Peter 3:19 to the prison was to preach to his children who would soon be joining him in heaven. Since the text indicates that these spirits in the prison disobeyed during the days of Noah, that the thought of the hearts of the men were evil continually and that as a result he was sorry that he made man, I find it unlikely that they were in a state of grace. In fact, it says in 2 Peter 2:5 that God brought the flood on the world of the ungodly: If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; so verse 20 actually disproves your notion that verse 19 is a reference to purgatory unless you believe that those who were evil enough to cause God to destroy the earth with the flood were actually in his grace and friendship. Those whose works burn in the account of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, where do they go exactly? Rob |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by rhadsen
Their good works are being tested NOT their iniquities/sins The context is that while their works may be burned up yet they ARE saved. If their works survive the fire they receive one of the crowns. Crown of life (Rev. 2:10), a crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8), and a crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4) etc... Incorruptible crown 1 Cor. 9:25 1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. This crown is given for those who strive for mastery and is temperate in all things. Now here is a simple truth. Only those who strive will get this crown so therefore if you don't strive then you will not get this crown. Not everyone is going to get one. The Bible teaches a reward system in heaven. Crown of rejoicing 1 Thes. 2:19-20 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? For ye are our glory and joy. This is often referred to as the Soul Winners Crown. The verse says what is our crown of rejoicing? And then it answers the question with ye are. Who are the ye? They are the people that they won to the Lord. This is the Soul winners crown. So people who win souls get one and those who do not win souls don't get one. The Bible teaches a reward system in heaven. Crown of righteousness II Tim. 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. This crown goes to those who love his appearing. Now if you are sitting there with a bottle of the Devils brew in your hand when Jesus comes, you are not going to love His appearing. If you are carrying a load of un-confessed sin, you are not going to love His appearing, because when He appears you are then going to the Judgment seat of Christ to give an answer. That is not going to be any fun if you are living in sin. And again some Christians are going to get a crown of righteousness and many Christians are not. Crown of glory 1 Peter 5:2-4 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. This is often referred to as the Pastor's crown. This crown is for those who feed the flock and take oversight of it. And notice that they have to do it with the right motivation. They have to do it willingly and not for money. There are many Pastors that are expecting to get this crown that won't. Instead of preaching the whole consul of God and exercising proper oversight over the flock. They tickle people's ears so that they can have more people so that they can have more power and more money. Some Pastor's are going to get this crown and some will not. Crown of life Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. This crown is often referred to as the Martyr's crown. This crown goes to those who are faithful unto death. This crown goes to those who are killed for their faith. There are a total of 5 crowns that Christians will be rewarded with. But that is not the only rewards in Heaven. Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: We are commanded to lay up treasures in Heaven. That tells me several things. One there must be treasures for us to lay up in Heaven. We would not be commanded to do it if it was not possible. And if we have to lay them up, then some people are going to get them and some will not. Two is says treasures. Plural. So there are many treasures that we can lay up in Heaven. Three it should be obvious that some are going to lay up more treasures than others. The Bible teaches a reward system in Heaven. 2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. This verse is talking about rewards and not salvation. You cannot loose your salvation. But this verse teaches that you can lose your rewards. It says to look to yourselves so that you don't lose the things that you have wrought. So that you can receive a full reward. If you are not careful you can have a full reward laid up and then get careless during the last years of your life and lose those things which you have wrought. And when Jesus comes you will not get what you would have had coming. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. It is our works that lays up treasures in Heaven. Heb 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. You do a good work with the right heart and God will not forget your work and labor of love. 1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. What ever work that you do for the Lord is not in vain. God takes notice and God will reward you for it. 1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Our works are going to be tried by the fiery judgment of God. If our works are wood hay and stubble then they will be burnt up. It will be like we never did them. However, if our works abide. If they survive the test of God's fiery judgment, then we will receive a reward. The Bible clearly teaches a reward system in Heaven. Again this is NOT a fire to purge sin/iniquity Jesus took care of that on the cross. I would still like an answer to if God can elaborate on the judgments, the crowns, the first and second resurrection of believers why isn't the Bible clear on Purgatory? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
We have explained that God cast sin away and forgives it once we confess and that it is no more remembered which would prove before death. I have yet to see how in the world you justify that it is after death. AGAIN to believe we have to be purged of our sin after death is crucifying Christ again and saying his death on the cross was insignificant.
I gave you several verses on that. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by sndbay
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by sndbay
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you. Obedience is voluntary and salutary for the one in authority and the one under the authority. Are you somehow claiming that Jesus Christ did not give the Church His authority? Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jesus cleansed us at the cross you still have not proven that we need cleansed after death
Rom 8:1-11 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, Hebrews 1:3 After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 7:27-28 Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. Colossians 1:22 Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses From everything I read I just can't see it. To me Purgatory is saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not good enough to satisfy the demands and payment for sin. Purgatory must satisfy part of the payment for sins through suffering after death. That is a works salvation, which makes it a totally false salvation. Catholic purgatory crucifies Jesus afresh by claiming that Jesus' death was not sufficient to cleanse sin. It is the equivalent of good works that God condemned in Matt 7 You have not only rejected the grace of God, you have shamefully crucified Christ among you." Paul employs the same phraseology in Hebrews 6:6: "Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." It should make any person afraid to hear Paul say that those who seek to be justified by the Law, not only deny Christ, but also crucify Him anew. If those who seek to be justified by the Law and its works are crucifiers of Christ, what are they, I like to know, who seek salvation by the filthy rags of their own work-righteousness? Of all the diseased and vicious doctrines of the papacy the worst is this: "If you want to serve God you must earn your own remission of sins and everlasting life, and in addition help others to obtain salvation by giving them the benefit of your extra work-holiness." Monks, friars, and all the rest of them brag that besides the ordinary requirements common to all Christians, they do the works of supererogation, i.e., the performance of more than is required. This is certainly a fiendish illusion. No wonder Paul employs such sharp language in his effort to recall the Galatians from the doctrine of the false apostles. He says to them: "Don't you realize what you have done? You have crucified Christ anew because you seek salvation by the Law." True, Christ can no longer be crucified in person, but He is crucified in us when we reject grace, faith, free remission of sins and endeavor to be justified by our own works, or by the works of the Law. The Apostle is incensed at the presumptuousness of any person who thinks he can perform the Law of God to his own salvation. He charges that person with the atrocity of crucifying anew the Son of God. Can you deny that God does not cleanse our sins the minute we ask him to forgive us? As the Bible DOES teach! I STILL want to know why if God can elaborate on the Judgments, the crowns, the seals and the trumpets why would he neglect mentioning going to purgatory to cleanse any undealt with sin? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Tj
1 John 1:9 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. NKJV De Maria. This says He cleanses us. It doesn't say where and when. N0help4u. It does not say where or when so how can you read into it that it means after death. De Maria. Read the message again. Tom says this disproves Purgatory. But it doesn't. It substantiates Purgatory because in Purgatory God cleanses us. NO it does not substantiate purgatory. Tom IS right and I have explained why over and over here. |
||||
|
|
Not your question?
Ask your question
View similar questions
| Question Tools | Search this Question |
Check out some similar questions!
How long does it take long term vicodin consumption to exit your system?
[ 7 Answers ]
If you have been on vicodin for a long time how long does it take to get out of your system.
How long is too long to have depression?
[ 7 Answers ]
I'm Ariel and am 16 years old. I have had depression for about 7 years starting around the time my parents were getting a divorce. My mother took me and my 3 other sisters to a Phsyciatrist for about a year then took us out for awhile then took me back in all within 2 years. I have been very strong...
How long I'm I going to last with my lover will it be long?
[ 4 Answers ]
How Long Will I Last With My Lover?
Long-short-long
[ 2 Answers ]
Hey you Okay I have a dilemma.For along time I had Long hair(almost to my butt)but then I started working out and it would get sweaty so I cut it shorter(wayyy shorter like I cut off over 20 inches)but now I kind of miss my long locks! All I can do is wait.But every time I had long hair somehow I...
Do You Believe in Purgatory?
[ 13 Answers ]
I was wondering whether their really was a Pergatory. It has been a long time since I was a Catholic. I call myself a non-denominational Christian. While I definitely do not believe in" venial" sin, I am believing in Pergatory again. I recently had an experience in my Spirit, and...
View more questions Search
|
