[arcura]

31Pumpkin,
You said. "How much clout one wants to give to God or Jesus is personal & depends on what a person's satisfied with or comfortable with."
I agree!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[beautifuldiva]

You have much knowledge on this subject, yet I am still unsure of your position... do you feel that the Bible teaches that Jesus and God are one being?

"The Word" is a title given to Jesus translated in Greek "ho Lo'gos" Regaurding the Son's prehuman existence, John says: "In the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (John 1:1 New World Translation) the King James version and the Douay Version read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god." This would make it appear that the Word was identical with Almighty God, while the former reading, the New World Translation, indicates that the Word is not the God, Almighty God, but is a mighty one, a god. (Even the judges of ancient Israel, who wielded great power in the nation, were called "gods." [Ps 82:6; John 10:34, 35]) Actually, in the Greek text, the definite article ho, "the", appears before the second.

Other translations aid in getting the proper view. The interlinear word-for-word reading of the Greek translation in the Empahtic Diaglott reads: "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word." The accompanying text of the Diaglott usus capital and small letters for the God, and initial capital and lowercase letters for the second appearance of "God" in the sentence: "In the Beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with GOD, and the LOGOS was God."

These renderings would support the fact that Jesus, being the Son of God and the one USED BY GOD in creating all other things (Col 1:15-20), is indeed a "god," a mighty one, and has the quality of mightiness, but is NOT the Almighty God.

As regards to Thomas's statement at John 20:28 (My Lord and my God) does it prove that Jesus is truly God?

There is no objection to referring to Jesus as "God," if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus' own quotation from the Pslams in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as "gods." Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher then such men. Because of the uniquiness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 Jesus is referred to as the "only begotten god." All of this is in harmony with Jesus' being described as "a god" or "divine"

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus' death, Thomas had heard Jesus' prayer in which he addressed his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3) AFter Jesus' resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: "I am ascending..... to my god and your God." After recording what Thomas had said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may bave life in this name." (John 20:31)

So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas' exclamation that Jesus is himself the "the only true God" or that Jesus is a Trinitarian "God the Son," he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

*gaaaaaaassssspp* :)

[Morganite]

Yes, I see that reference, but aren't these "authors" just Scholars & Theorists?

My preference of credible sources comes from Theologians with several degrees in Theology.

Theologians with 'several degrees in theology' remain scholars and theorists. Theology is not science. There are no ;scientific' experiments that can be repeated over and over yielding the same result each time. Theologians take what is known of mankind's religious experience and try to make sense of it, God, the universe, life, and man's relationship to Deity.

What makes any theologian a 'credible source'? Multiplying degrees is no guarantee that one theologian is more credible than theologians with fewer degrees. I am at a loss to follow your thinking here. The first Christian theologian was Saint Paul who had a grand total of no degrees.

M:)

[31pumpkin]

Morganite-
I only said(at the very beginnining of this thread that I consider a theologian (any # of degrees but best if in different religions) more credible if they are a Minister also of that Faith. This shows me that they practice what they preach in service to the community. The pastors I tend to listen to or read their books have both a degree & are or were Ministers. This suggests to me that they have faith in their belief & that they know it works.
It was regarding the "Jesus Seminar" that one poster mentioned. I thought it was shallow since the participants were theologians & not ministers. They seemed so "off" with the Bible even compared to the average Christian.
That's all I remember right now. You can read that Jesus Seminar link & judge for yourself.

[LUNAGODDESS]

Time and Time again Jesus has stated he is doing the work of his father... Jesus is not the creator of himself... but the creator's helper... along with the holy spirit..

[Morganite]

Morganite-
I only said at the very beginnining of this thread that I consider a theologian (any # of degrees but best if in different religions) more credible if they are a Minister also of that Faith. This shows me that they practice what they preach in service to the community. The pastors I tend to listen to or read their books have both a degree & are or were Ministers. This suggests to me that they have faith in their belief & that they know it works.
It was regarding the "Jesus Seminar" that one poster mentioned. I thought it was shallow since the participants were theologians & not ministers. They seemed so "off" with the Bible even compared to the average Christian.
That's all I remember right now. You can read that Jesus Seminar link & judge for yourself.

Thank you for the clarification. I know of the Jesus Seminar people, and my impression of them is that they signal a departure from much that is traditionally considered Christian. Their own website carries the following statement:


Until a few years ago, essential knowledge about biblical and religious traditions was hidden in the windowless studies of universities and seminaries—away from the general public. Such research was considered too controversial or too complicated for lay persons to understand. Many scholars, fearing open conflict or even reprisal, talked only to one another. The churches often decided what information their constituents were "ready" to hear.



That passage alone is replete with errors that a five year-old child would not make. For example:

1. I have yet to see a windowless study in either university or religious seminary.
2. Theologians and Bible scholars publish their findings and their publications are on sale to anyone sufficiently interested.
3. Most of the controversial matter has been in the public arena for centuries. There is no 'hidden' work.
4. Theologians tend to speak in language peculiar to their discipline, as do scholars in any field. However, anyone with a dictionary can discover what the hard words mean.
5. I do not accept that theologians are such a pusillanimous group that they fear criticism, conflict, or reprisal.
6. Theologians do not limit their 'talk' to other theologians. They are a talkative lot and talk to cats and dogs if there are no other persons present!
7. I have never met a theologian who was other than readily accessible to all, whether another theologian, a lay person, clergy, or student.
8. Theology is about ideas, and ideas do not develop in vacuums, but in crucibles of debate, often passionate, partisan, and wide-ranging.
9. Churches have no machinery to keep any kind of information from their constituents (an interesting political term, where one would expect to find 'congregations,' or 'members.')

It is beyond dispute - and no theologian would dispute it - that theology and related subjects is by and large highly specialized, but that does not mean that it is inaccessible to non-specialists. Anyone with sufficient interest in the subject can unlock what might appear to be its 'secrets,' but which, in reality, are no more secret or arcane than are Home Owner's Association manuals.

Theology is a subject that probably has a longer history than any other scholastic discipline, and to appreciate the development of theological and christological thought does take some effort, because there is no shortcut to obtaining a reasonable knowledge of any subject. If one is capable of learning the rules of, say football, or baseball, etc. then one is capable of getting to grips with theological terminology and expressions of the human religious experience, and of getting on terms with theological thinkers old and new.

Theology itself has never been difficult to understand. It is the introduction of abstract philosophical concepts into what began as a fairly concrete system that put the cat among the pigeons, but ultimately it is a matter of how much a person really wants to understand theology in its many manifestations.

Here endeth the lesson.


M:)RGANITE

[galveston]

Has anyone mentioned this passage yet?

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)

I suspect that in spite of our best honest efforts, we will continue to have difficulty in understanding the Creator in every aspect. We can know Him in a very personal sense through the Holy Spirit, thankfully!

[Will144]

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?
Which means:
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

Many people are confused about this, and unfortunately false prophets makes matters even worse. It's a prophecy friend:)




It's a very good questions that you ask. For the most part, people don't understand why he said such words, people don't understand it's a prophecy. Mormons stick to that one verse to kill people spiritually by saying that Jesus was not the Messiah. The Answer is found in the bible, let's see:)

Jesus Christ was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of King David.

In Is 9:6-7 it describes Jesus sitting on King David's throne. But king David had died 300 years before then. At this point most people will say "The bible contradicts itself" No, the bible is perfect. It means He will become a spiritual King David.

King David was baptized when he was 30 years old

2 Samuel 5:4
"David was thirty years old when he became king....."

When do you think Jesus was baptized?

Luke 3:21-23

"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry."




So far everything makes sense right? Now the answer to your questions..

King David said before he died:
Psalm 22:1
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

What do you think Jesus said just before he died, when he was on the cross? You've got it:)

Mark 15:34

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "—which means, "

Because of this, people think he is not God. But he's true God who came in the flesh. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

[email protected]

[Morganite]

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?
Which means:
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

Many people are confused about this, and unfortunately false prophets makes matters even worse. It's a prophecy friend:)




It's a very good questions that you ask. For the most part, people don't understand why he said such words, people don't understand it's a prophecy. Mormons stick to that one verse to kill people spiritually by saying that Jesus was not the Messiah. The Answer is found in the bible, let's see:)

Jesus Christ was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of King David.

In Is 9:6-7 it describes Jesus sitting on King David's throne. But king David had died 300 years before then. At this point most people will say "The bible contradicts itself" No, the bible is perfect. It means He will become a spiritual King David.

King David was baptized when he was 30 years old

2 Samuel 5:4
"David was thirty years old when he became king....."

When do you think Jesus was baptized?

Luke 3:21-23

"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry."




So far everything makes sense right? Now the answer to your questions..

King David said before he died:
Psalm 22:1
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

What do you think Jesus said just before he died, when he was on the cross? You've got it:)

Mark 15:34

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Because of this, people think he is not God. But he's true God who came in the flesh. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

[email protected]

Interesting. Can you give a reference to where Mormons say Jesus was not the messiah? I have heard that they do. Could you be confusing them with another denomination?

M:)RGANITE

[arcura]

The Mormons I know believe Jesus is the Messiah.

[EmmaWells]

Mormons stick to that one verse to kill people spiritually by saying that Jesus was not the Messiah.

I am Morman and never say that. We know Jesus is the Messiah. Emma

[Will144]

I am Morman and never say that. We know Jesus is the Messiah. Emma

I apologize for that. I didn't mean to say mormons, I meant to say Jehova's Witnesses.

[Will144]

Interesting. Can you give a reference to where Mormons say Jesus was not the messiah? I have heard that they do. Could you be confusing them with another denomination?

M:)RGANITE

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

[ordinaryguy]

Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth.

I do have a question. Does your church teach humility as a virtue?

[Will144]

I do have a question. Does your church teach humility as a virtue?

Yes, and beyond. For it is more blessed to serve others than to be served. We follow the Lamb everywhere the Lamb goes.

[galveston]

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

Does this mean that you don't expect Jesus to descend from above (as He left) and set foot on Mt. Olive, and then establish the visible Kingdom of God upon this Earth?

[Morganite]

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

There are more than 2,000 discrete denominations and more being added continually. I have not come across any that believe as you do. I note your assurance that you alone have the truth (hardly a novel idea), but would prefer explanation instead of assurances. How do you arrive at your conclusion that the ancient Israelitish pesach is the New Covenant, and when did this enlightenment reach the earth and by whom was it received?

When you say 'nobody out there knows this truth' do you mean to infer that you and you alone know what the rest of Christianity do not know?


M:)RGANITE

[Will144]

There are more than 2,000 discrete denominations and more being added continually. I have not come across any that believe as you do. I note your assurance that you alone have the truth (hardly a novel idea), but would prefer explanation instead of assurances. How do you arrive at your conclusion that the ancient Israelitish pesach is the New Covenant, and when did this enlightenment reach the earth and by whom was it received?

When you say 'nobody out there knows this truth' do you mean to infer that you and you alone know what the rest of Christianity do not know?


M:)RGANITE

Discrete. No need for "discrete" when you have the bible. I do not have the truth, God knows the truth. I myself have no truth,in fact, no men has the truth; but I follow the truth because it has been given to me freely, therefore freely I have to deliver it. I preach the truth because it is God's will that we deliver if we find the truth. The Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago which has been raised up again by God's will has the truth. And this church has the very truth. Specially the truth of the New Covenant (The Passover) .

[Morganite]

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

You did not answer my question, although I note that you corrected your false information in another response.

What, exactly, is the name of your church and what is its history? What is the status of david the murderer?

M:)

[Morganite]

discrete. No need for "discrete" when you have the bible. I do not have the truth, God knows the truth. I myself have no truth,in fact, no men has the truth; but I follow the truth because it has been given to me freely, therefore freely i have to deliver it. I preach the truth because it is God's will that we deliver if we find the truth. The Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago which has been raised up again by God's will has the truth. And this church has the very truth. Specially the truth of the New Covenant (The Passover) .

Discrete means separate and distinct.

I am pleased that you have the Bible, but then so have I, and so have millions of others. That still leaves my question to you unanswered. What did Jesus mean when he said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If you do not have the truth, how are you (or anyone) free from error and false belief?

M:)