[Wondergirl]

Won't you still be quoting me, one way or the other?

Like this.

It's OK. We can move on. I do hope you're feeling better. You mentioned several weeks ago that you were having health problems. Get well!

I have aplastic anemia, the rarest of the anemias. (For those who refuse to google, aplastic anemia is a rare, potentially fatal disease in which the bone marrow doesn't make enough blood cells.) In my case, it's a long-term problem, no known cause, currently in remission.

[jlisenbe]

Glad you are at least in remission.

[talaniman]

Glad you are at least in remission.

Me too!

@JL

You never did clarify those folks who decided what was to be put in the bible. We know it wasn't the copy guys, or the guys that chose what to be copied, and do we know the individual writers of every book? Did they deciples write their own stuff or tell a writer what they experienced?

[jlisenbe]

Actually, I posted this earlier. "Irenaeus in the second century mentions 21 books as being accepted in the churches, all 21 of which ended up in the 4th century canon. At about the same time the Muratorian fragment mentions a very similar set of accepted books." It seems likely that there was settled agreement on what we now call the canon by the end of the second century in that they recognized most of what we have now. There was agreement on the four Gospels, Acts, nearly all of Paul's works, 1 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Revelation. By the end of the fourth century, the canon was formalized in the sense that councils acknowledged what was already widely believed. It is believed that Paul dictated his letters to a secretary. None of the epistles are generally thought to be the work of another individual. Luke and John are clearly the authors of their gospels. Matthew and Mark are named by tradition and are widely accepted as authentic.

The early church fathers frequently quoted from the New Testament, so much so that even if the NT was completely lost, it could be found in their writings with the exception of a very minimal group of verses.

[jlisenbe]

Wondergirl, it won't let me send you the test message. Your mailbox is full. Delete some stuff. Since I can't send it, and since I don't want to go over it again, here it is.

1. What are the names of the three waterfalls that comprise Niagara Falls?American, Horseshoe, and Bridal Veil Falls.
2. What is the name of the island that lies between two of the falls? Goat Island
3. Why was the island given this name? A herd of goats once roamed there.
4. Which Frenchman discovered Niagara Falls in 1678?Louis Hennepin
5. Who is credited with starting Niagara Falls’ honeymoon tradition in 1804? Brian and Wendy Honeymoon.
6. Which tightrope walker crossed Niagara Falls on June 15, 2012, on a live ABC special, following a two-year legal battle involving both sides of the Canada–United States border to gain approval, and was required to wear a safety harness for the first time in his/her life?Pretty sure that was Donald Trump.
7. Who was the first person, on his/her 63rd birthday on October 24, 1901, to go over the Horseshoe Falls in a custom-made (padded with a mattress) wooden barrel intentionally and survive? You know, I think that was Joe Biden. That might explain several things.
8. The Niagara River flows over the Falls from which Great Lake? Lake Erie
9. The Niagara River flows into which Great Lake? Lake Ontario
10. What is the name of the ship canal that enables ships to ascend and descend the Niagara Escarpment and bypass Niagara Falls? Donald Trump Canal

Hey, Teach. I was not well prepped for this test!

[Wondergirl]

Sorry about a full mailbox. You got 6/10 correct, 60%. Hmm....

Added: mailbox has been cleaned out and sterilized

[jlisenbe]

I still think I got numbers six and ten correct.

[jlisenbe]

According to Daniel Wallace, 43% of the NT is contained in manuscripts from the second century.


The is hardly accepted by the majority of scholars. The first complete Gospel is from the 4th century. Prior to that are fragments only.

I would be happy to go with this scholar.
https://voice.dts.edu/article/wallac...first-century/

Likely? Largely settled? Are you making this up? The Bible was canonized in the late 4th century (Council of Laodicea).

Read Iraneus. He's second century and one person removed from the Apostle John.

At the time, there were over 50 gospels and over 100 epistles being used in churches.

Evidence for that?

There is also no evidence that the text of the NT has been changed in any substantial way since the autographs, and certainly in no way that suggests it has "evolved" in meaning or content.

70 books, almost one million words, 40-50 different authors, composed over millenia, passed down by hand-written copies until the printing press, etc. Do you seriously maintain no changes have occurred?

70 books in the NT? 50 authors? What??

Read carefully. My assertion was, "...in no way that suggests it has "evolved" in meaning or content." I'll be happy to stick with that. I never suggested there were no changes, but I would suggest that finding meaningful ones is not easy,

[talaniman]

Changes, additions, and ommmissions depending on which version or account.

https://www.history.com/topics/religion/bible

[jlisenbe]

There are no changes of great consequence. If you have 18 free minutes, this video does a nice job of showing the reliability of the New Testament text. The site you linked was not written by a New Testament scholar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdCRanZZyw

[talaniman]

No it was not written by NT scholars, but historians who point out that many regions had writings they put together and were rejected for whatever reasons by one or another for varying reasons. You cannot miss the historical value of others that came along later and revised and changed things (Kings of Euro nations, the Catholics and Protestants) for their particulars sects, and Christianity (Most religions) has as many as any in teachings, interpretations, traditions and customs.

The writings of Judas and the Dead Sea Scrolls illustrate that the writings of ancient man on those times and events can have additions and differing views and perspectives worth noting, even if they didn't make it into the final version whichever that is.

I can see being loyal to whatever sect you belong to. I suppose that's why we have so many churches today with nuances unique to themselves.

[jlisenbe]

The writings of Judas and the Dead Sea Scrolls illustrate that the writings of ancient man on those times and events can have additions and differing views and perspectives worth noting, even if they didn't make it into the final version whichever that is.

There are no writings of Judas. As to the Dead Sea Scrolls, they have basically nothing to do with the New Testament. They do, however, give great testimony to the accurate transmission of the OT.

[talaniman]

https://differentspirit.org/evidence...ea-scrolls.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Forgive my mischaracterizations or the ignorance of not separating the old and new testements. You can chalk it up as an outsider just looking at ancient man in an objective manner as a period piece of the times and conditions rather than a divine law. If Jesus was a Jew, and the Jewish hierarchy had it in for him, which lead to torture and death, then I can certainly understand his followers establishing a new religion around HIM, while separating themselves from the Jewish foundations. Thus the NT and Christianity.

http://www.religionfacts.com/charts/...-islam-judaism

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are three of the most influential world religions in history. While Judaism isn't as large as Christianity and Islam, its impact on the world has still been as profound. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are sometimes called "Abrahamic religions" because they trace their history to the ancient figure of Abraham, first mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

Branches from the same tree?

[jlisenbe]

No one suggests that Judas wrote the Gospel of Judas.

The followers of Jesus did not establish a new religion. Jesus Himself did that. Read the gospels and you can see for yourself.

There is no other religion in the world similar to Christianity, or at least any that I know of.

[talaniman]

No one suggests that Judas wrote the Gospel of Judas.

Nor did I just acknowledged it's existence.

The followers of Jesus did not establish a new religion. Jesus Himself did that. Read the gospels and you can see for yourself.

Jesus proclaimed he was the fulfilment of the messianic prophesy. The establishment disagreed. To this day they still do. He did not establish a new religion, he never broke from the Jewish faith, but his followers did.

There is no other religion in the world similar to Christianity, or at least any that I know of.

To me they all look alike and the followers say the same as you. I don't judge which is right, or one from another, but respect them all and the humans who make their own choice. My own choice is the relationship with the God I understand and to put nothing between us. It answers my questions and guides my path. What more can I ask for?

[jlisenbe]

Jesus proclaimed he was the fulfilment of the messianic prophesy. The establishment disagreed. To this day they still do. He did not establish a new religion, he never broke from the Jewish faith, but his followers did.

Like I said, read the Gospels and see for yourself. It's very clearly stated in the passage below. You cannot put new wine (faith in Christ) into an old wineskin (Judasim).

Mark 2:18ff. 18Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”19Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.21“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

It is in a multitude of other places as well.

Only the Christian faith, of all the world's major religions, tells of a Savior that, by having faith in Him, will bring salvation to a person completely aside from his or her own good or bad works.

[Wondergirl]

Mark 2:18ff. 18Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”19Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.21“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

That is Jesus telling his followers to have common sense, not that He's starting a new religion.

Jesus created the teachings of the Gospel, but Paul implemented them throughout the ancient world, spreading a religion that may have originally been meant as a new, improved Judaism.

[jlisenbe]

That is Jesus telling his followers to have common sense, not that He's starting a new religion.

You really believe that Jesus talks about cloth and wineskins just to tell his disciples to have common sense??? Find any Bible commentary that agrees with you and we can discuss it.

Jesus created the teachings of the Gospel, but Paul implemented them throughout the ancient world, spreading a religion that may have originally been meant as a new, improved Judaism.

Find any place where Jesus tells his disciples that he has come to refine and improve the Jewish faith and we can discuss that as well. No, His consistent message was that all of mankind, Jews and Gentiles, were to trust in Him for their salvation. That is far, far removed from a Jewish refinement.

Why haven't you addressed my grammar question?

[Wondergirl]

Why haven't you addressed my grammar question?

??? What grammar question ???

[jlisenbe]

I messaged you yesterday about how to punctuate parenthetical expressions.

I'll resend it.