[Wondergirl]

The baker and florist, business people, do not participate in ANY wedding.

[cdad]

The baker and florist, business people, do not participate in ANY wedding.

Actually yes they do. Atleast if they are good ones. They may play a role that is near the sidelines but they are there to make sure everything goes correctly and according to the customers wishes.

[cdad]

Who's giving up freedom?

So now the US ISN'T a melting pot?

Persons of deeply held religious beleifs may be forced to perform acts that go directly against what they beleive. Since it is currently a right to paticipate or not in a religious beleif then you are mandating by the government what and how you should beleive.

Seems that with this decision the government has placed itself directly into the path of being a religious zealot and forcing others to attend under threat of punishment.

Nope no more melting pot. The government has seen to that.

[NeedKarma]

Since it is currently a right to paticipate or not in a religious beleif then you are mandating by the government what and how you should beleive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[cdad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Poke fun if you like but how about proving me wrong ?

[talaniman]

According to Tom, just baking a wedding cake is participation enough to go against one's religious beliefs. Like the pharmacist who cannot sell birth control pills. I am sure not all bakers and florists feel that way, and there must be a free market solution, but the gloom and doom end of the world stuff is a bit paranoid. Change and inclusion as set in our own constitution may not be smooth, and not every judge is a liberal bleeding heart, but it seems every time some group wants a piece of the equality dream somebody always finds a reason to deny it.

Obviously we have not arrived at creating that perfect union yet. YOU would have to be blind if you think we have.

[Wondergirl]

Actually yes they do. Atleast if they are good ones. They may play a role that is near the sidelines but they are there to make sure everything goes correctly and according to the customers wishes.

My dad was a minister and officiated at innumerable weddings, including his children's. I have, as an adult, been to scads of weddings. The florist and baker deliver their goods before the wedding, then disappear back to their shops. They don't hang around to make sure of anything.

[Fr_Chuck]

I will add that I have done many weddings and blessings.

It is at some point, if someone professes to be a Christian, where do they draw line. Most like to talk, and then say we will pray from the safety of their pew on Sunday morning. To me, they are as bad, if perhaps as worst as those who merely go along and do things against their religious teachings.

The idea at least when you read the Bible, there is risks to being a Christian. None of the 12 disciples retired to a rich beach house. Most were tortured or killed for their beliefs. Today in many parts of the world, Christians are put in prison, beaten or killed merely for their beliefs. But they hold on to their beliefs, I doubt if more than 4 or 5 percent of people in America, who "claim" to be Christian, would stand up and declare they are, if they faced torture or death.

There is a simple answer for Christians, all Christian churches, declare that they will no longer obey any law that is against their teachings. They don't worry about tax exemptions, and their members refuse to issue gay marriage license, refuse to have any dealings with gay marriages.

If America really is (and I do not believe it is) it would be simple, the government can not put in jail millions of Christians, it can not take 100's of thousands to court.

And if a few lose their jobs or business, let the churches support and help restore them for doing their Christian duty.

[paraclete]

Chuck christians have forgotten to rely on the power of God and this is because many are nominal and do not know that God has no grandchildren.

You want to know where to draw the line? At the biblical standard. Either you believe or you do not. There isn't any half in and half out. I am not for Islam but Islam would not allow what has just been done in the US. The US has just proven what Iran has suspected and declared for decades. I hear voices saying that what has been done is a victory for freedom, that people are somehow more free, and I wonder how the majority can somehow swallow such nonsense. Did the founding fathers fight for this sort of freedom? Did they liberate a nation to licensiousness?

[talaniman]

They did it for the free labor, and the right not to pay taxes to the homeland. And burn a few witches along the way, while running the heathens off their lands. No blood on Christian hands from any examples of history.

They are as flawed as the rest of the humans.

[paraclete]

Tal you said they did it to run the heathens off their lands, how come the heathens have been allowed to take over? No one is free of blood Tal, Not christians, Not muslims, Not heathens, this is because no one heeds the instructions there seems to be "a you couldn't mean me" clause

[tomder55]

Nope no more melting pot. The government has seen to that.

Nobody on the left calls it a melting pot anymore . I've heard phrases like "quilt " or "mosaic " . In other words ,there is no unique assimilation per se.

My dad was a minister and officiated at innumerable weddings, including his children's. I have, as an adult, been to scads of weddings. The florist and baker deliver their goods before the wedding, then disappear back to their shops. They don't hang around to make sure of anything.

The fact that the cake they bake is being used in the ceremony makes them participants . Suppose a Jewish baker was force to bake for a neo-nazi event . Would he be subject to the same standards that you would impose on a baker who holds deeply held objections to homosexual weddings ?

I will add that I have done many weddings and blessings.

It is at some point, if someone professes to be a Christian, where do they draw line. Most like to talk, and then say we will pray from the safety of their pew on Sunday morning. To me, they are as bad, if perhaps as worst as those who merely go along and do things against their religious teachings.

The idea at least when you read the Bible, there is risks to being a Christian. None of the 12 disciples retired to a rich beach house. Most were tortured or killed for their beliefs. Today in many parts of the world, Christians are put in prison, beaten or killed merely for their beliefs. But they hold on to their beliefs, I doubt if more than 4 or 5 percent of people in America, who "claim" to be Christian, would stand up and declare they are, if they faced torture or death.

There is a simple answer for Christians, all Christian churches, declare that they will no longer obey any law that is against their teachings. They don't worry about tax exemptions, and their members refuse to issue gay marriage license, refuse to have any dealings with gay marriages.

If America really is (and I do not believe it is) it would be simple, the government can not put in jail millions of Christians, it can not take 100's of thousands to court.

And if a few lose their jobs or business, let the churches support and help restore them for doing their Christian duty.

I am in favor of the elimination of the tax exempt status for religious institutions . It compromises the church's independent position and I also think they could be successfully challenged over the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment .

They did it for the free labor, and the right not to pay taxes to the homeland. And burn a few witches along the way, while running the heathens off their lands. No blood on Christian hands from any examples of history.

They are as flawed as the rest of the humans.

What a jaded view you have of your countries history !! Why do you stay in a land you despise so much ?

[NeedKarma]

The fact that the cake they bake is being used in the ceremony makes them participants

Nope, wrong.

Why do you stay in a land you despise so much ?

Do you not read your own posts? Go back and read your history of posts here at AMHD.

[talaniman]

In other words ,there is no unique assimilation per se.

That's the problem isn't it? Nobody wants to be assimilated by you. Live and let live. The country would be better for it. Then you won't have a freak out when your fellow Americans partake of their own dreams. Not serving a customer because of YOUR religious beliefs is a crock of CRAP!

Christianity isn't being assaulted, it's being ignored for truth and reality, and rightfully so considering the actual practice of it, as the institutions have failed its people and began to crumble long before gays decided to live in light, and not the closet.

A true Christian (or Muslim) would welcome others with love, and not beat them into conversion, to be ASSIMILATED! A people are judged by how they treat the least of them, not what they make them do.

How the hell can you serve a GOD when you cannot even serve a fellow human when all he wants is for you to bake him a freakin' cake? Enough of this self righteous hypocrisy. Get real, and realize WHY you are having such a bad week!

[paraclete]

Christianity isn't being assaulted, it's being ignored for truth and reality, and rightfully so considering the actual practice of it, as the institutions have failed its people and began to crumble long before gays decided to live in light, and not the closet.

A true Christian (or Muslim) would welcome others with love, and not beat them into conversion, to be ASSIMILATED! A people are judged by how they treat the least of them, not what they make them do.

Tal you may have understanding of the message of Christianity but you have certainly missed the message in Islam. Islam is assimulation, convert or die, our way or the highway and no room for gays there either. Would a muslim bake a cake for a gay wedding? Probably comprised of C4.

What is not realised is christianity is way of life not a religious observance, but the fact is there are rules and they are being broken by people of all persuasions.

You talk about freedon but the baker should be free to serve who he chooses in his shop without someone getting their nose out of joint, his right to free speech and freedom of association is just as strong as anyoneelses. If you walk into a store and they don't have what you want you go someplace else or perhaps not you're the type who would hold a protest and conduct a boycott

[tomder55]

Not serving a customer because of YOUR religious beliefs is a crock of CRAP!

Nope ;being compelled by the government to violate your religious beliefs is what is a crock . You make it sound like being served by a business is a right . Hate to clue you in but the Civil rights act makes it illegal to refuse service based on race, color, religion or national origin. Places of “public accommodation” include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.

Where does it say sexual orientation ? It doesn't . Should it ;probably yes . However if it means having to give your services to a ceremony that you have religious objections to then too bad . Find another baker ,minister ,florist ,caterer , dj to do the job. The only one who loses under that is the person who is refusing the service .
Fr Chuck is right. Churches have to take a stand if they are subject persecution by your tyranny .And believe me ....it is tyranny to force churches to perform religious services against their will. It is tyranny to tell a religious adoption service that they MUST adopt children to homosexual couples . It is tyranny to tell religious institutions that they MUST provide abortion pills to their employees against their religious beliefs .

Congratulations . Your side got what it wants again .... a war against religious rights . Doesn't surprise me . The left proves over and over again it opposed religious liberty ....and most of the rest of the 1st amendment for that matter .

[talaniman]

It's but the latest trick to legalize discrimination, promote hate, and marginalize another human. The others were struck down, so to will this one.

Not even ALL Christians are down with that Tom.​

[Wondergirl]

Nope ;being compelled by the government to violate your religious beliefs is what is a crock . You make it sound like being served by a business is a right

Why aren't we all questioned at the door as to our sexual orientation? Who's going to undress me to see if I'm transgender or check my into my sex life to see if I kiss other women? (I've heard that those who scream the loudest are the most insecure.) Or maybe most businesses welcome customers who BUY stuff.

[paraclete]

I keep wondering why this is an argument, fact is most of the gay community live among the gay community, it is only when they stray there is conflict

[Wondergirl]

I keep wondering why this is an argument, fact is most of the gay community live among the gay community, it is only when they stray there is conflict

That's not true in the US. They might be your neighbors, eeeeek! I know four same-sex couples who've been together 25 years and longer who own homes in upper-middle class neighborhoods. And two of those couples adopted babies years ago. And guess what -- those babies had terrific childhoods and are straight adults with successful careers.